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So what was this whole war, its death toll (particularly in "collateral damage" i.e. civilian deaths), its costs good for? Is anyone being held accountable? Wil

So what was this whole war, its death toll (particularly in "collateral damage" i.e. civilian deaths), its costs good for? Is anyone being held accountable? Will we learn anything from it? Of course not. We need to keep the war machine well oiled so something has to come up.

cjbenedikt 5y ago
Feel free to deduct another point or two. That seems to be the case with my comments recently. Welcome to an open discussion on HN ( ...and here's anothecpoint gone for criticism).
- johng 5y ago
  Don’t know why anyone would downvote you. It’s a valid question.
- gambiting 5y ago
  I just don't understand why you'd make this comment literally 2 minutes after writing the original one. 1) you can still edit the original to add this remark if you really want to, although it's frowned upon 2) initial downvotes mean nothing, I've had comments go to -10 before jumping back up to +30 few hours later. Why would you complain about it within 3 minutes of posting is beyond me.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Because it's really annoying getting reflexively downvoted by idealogues or zealots who have nothing else to say.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      Not everyone who thinks you're flat-out wrong is an idealogue or a zealot.
- myrandomcomment 5y ago
  My first read on your comment was the tone in it is inflammatory and designed to provoke vs make a point or a validate argument. That is likely why you were downvoted. I can very much be accused of doing the same thing in some of my comments on emotional topics and in general the results are not as good as if I had framed things as a statement or a question without being emotional. YMMV.
- cjbenedikt 5y ago
  And success! Lost more points than I could've hoped for.
hindsightbias 5y ago
The public wanted it and will not hold itself accountable https://news.gallup.com/poll/9994/public-opinion-war-afghanistan.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/9994/public-opinion-war-afghani...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ren_engineer 5y ago
  the public was brainwashed and outright fed misinformation by the government who wanted to invade sounds like victim blaming the public
  - hindsightbias 5y ago
    > victim What an interesting word for a bloodthirsty mob. I’m sure the real victims, the Afghans, appreciate that you have no agency.
    - ren_engineer 5y ago
      the alternative would be US citizens placing no trust in the media or US government, because they became a "blood thirsty mob" under their influence. people wonder why today so many people are skeptical when it comes to the pandemic and anything else the government says, the government constantly lying to them is the primary cause
flyinglizard 5y ago
Maybe things were a bit better for a while. Life's essence is an integral of happiness.
- hollerith 5y ago
  Maybe so, but as a US taxpayer, I object to any plan or program that buys so little happiness for so many US tax dollars.
- dweekly 5y ago
  With a quarter of a million dead[1], I'm not sure I can agree with "better" for the families of those impacted. On a "Dollars Per Amount of Joy Conferred" metric for success (which I like!), I think this one gets a pretty big negative score. [1] https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/human-and-budgetary-costs-date-us-war-afghanistan-2001-2021 https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/human-and-b...
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>So what was this whole war, its death toll its costs good for? It's a message. For the next several hundred years every warlord and extremist groups that's about to consolidate power over a nation is going to point at the Taliban and say "we want to run this nation, we don't want our sons to be running it" when kicking out particularly odious house guests who have dreams of attacking the 1st world. Was it worth it? IDK, doubt it. But that's what we bought at the end of the day. We bought a precedent.
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  I agree with you in principle but in reality it was the US who was deterred, more than Afghanistan (which does not really seem to exist in any sovereign capacity). Warlords can operate with relative impunity knowing the US public would not let another Afghanistan take place.
- digdigdag 5y ago
  You put forth a quasi-patriotic interpretation and a false premise, as the true benefactors of attacks on the 1st world have long been indicated (though not officially confirmed) to state sponsored groups in Saudi Arabia. Yet there they still stand, completely untouched by the quagmire that was Afghanistan and Iraq for the past 20 years. Secondly, we gave an entire generation of orphaned children (now adults at this point) all the more reason to focus their rage and frustration at the United States. I'm not sure what the net effect of all this is down the road, but I don't think it will be a case of these nations fearing the first world. Quite the opposite I think.
- xorcist 5y ago
  Make no mistake, the Taliban stands to gain from this conflict. Not to mention Pakistan.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Of course they do. They want their country back. They want to pick up where they left off in 2001. And frankly I think they deserve their country back. But I doubt they'll harbor people who attack the first world again. That venture was nothing but a waste of 20yr and blood to them, same as it was to us.
laurent92 5y ago
There aren’t many ways to cope with this realization. The tipping point was Colin Powell’s “definitive proof” at the UN Counsel that Irak had WMD. As long as such criminals are free, we are not. Citizen may even too aware of this, as half melt into guilt of what the USA has done, the other half still have hope but also cynicism, even despair. As for other nations, if I were Iran, Irak, the Talibans, the Afghans, I’d fund efforts to destabilize USA. If I were China, I’d even organize it to ensure it weakens them without weakening the commercial exchanges. If I were Russia I’d tip into the jar too. USA made many enemies, it may be the target of coordinated spy work. And I say this as a staunch partisan of the USA. We should spend more on looking benevolent.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  About your third paragraph: You seem to think this isn't already happening. I think you're several years late.
  - laurent92 5y ago
    I didn’t want to dive into how the Congress invasion could be an artifact of enemies successfully mounting us against each other.
mattnewton 5y ago
Cynically? The executive branch got a bunch of new powers in the Patriot act, Halliburton shares soared for a few years, and the only people who were punished were a handful of traditional republicans associated with the Bush administration not already retired before isolationists like Trump took over the party. The main architects all did very well. I can only hope that the next generation learned not to trust government as quickly, but Vietnam wasn't that long ago so I don't know how realistic that hope is.

cjbenedikt 5y ago

Feel free to deduct another point or two. That seems to be the case with my comments recently. Welcome to an open discussion on HN ( ...and here's anothecpoint gone for criticism).

johng 5y ago
Don’t know why anyone would downvote you. It’s a valid question.
gambiting 5y ago
I just don't understand why you'd make this comment literally 2 minutes after writing the original one. 1) you can still edit the original to add this remark if you really want to, although it's frowned upon 2) initial downvotes mean nothing, I've had comments go to -10 before jumping back up to +30 few hours later. Why would you complain about it within 3 minutes of posting is beyond me.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Because it's really annoying getting reflexively downvoted by idealogues or zealots who have nothing else to say.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Not everyone who thinks you're flat-out wrong is an idealogue or a zealot.
myrandomcomment 5y ago
My first read on your comment was the tone in it is inflammatory and designed to provoke vs make a point or a validate argument. That is likely why you were downvoted. I can very much be accused of doing the same thing in some of my comments on emotional topics and in general the results are not as good as if I had framed things as a statement or a question without being emotional. YMMV.
cjbenedikt 5y ago
And success! Lost more points than I could've hoped for.

hindsightbias 5y ago

The public wanted it and will not hold itself accountable https://news.gallup.com/poll/9994/public-opinion-war-afghanistan.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/9994/public-opinion-war-afghani...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ren_engineer 5y ago
the public was brainwashed and outright fed misinformation by the government who wanted to invade sounds like victim blaming the public
- hindsightbias 5y ago
  > victim What an interesting word for a bloodthirsty mob. I’m sure the real victims, the Afghans, appreciate that you have no agency.
  - ren_engineer 5y ago
    the alternative would be US citizens placing no trust in the media or US government, because they became a "blood thirsty mob" under their influence. people wonder why today so many people are skeptical when it comes to the pandemic and anything else the government says, the government constantly lying to them is the primary cause

flyinglizard 5y ago

Maybe things were a bit better for a while. Life's essence is an integral of happiness.

hollerith 5y ago
Maybe so, but as a US taxpayer, I object to any plan or program that buys so little happiness for so many US tax dollars.
dweekly 5y ago
With a quarter of a million dead[1], I'm not sure I can agree with "better" for the families of those impacted. On a "Dollars Per Amount of Joy Conferred" metric for success (which I like!), I think this one gets a pretty big negative score. [1] https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/human-and-budgetary-costs-date-us-war-afghanistan-2001-2021 https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/human-and-b...

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>So what was this whole war, its death toll its costs good for? It's a message. For the next several hundred years every warlord and extremist groups that's about to consolidate power over a nation is going to point at the Taliban and say "we want to run this nation, we don't want our sons to be running it" when kicking out particularly odious house guests who have dreams of attacking the 1st world. Was it worth it? IDK, doubt it. But that's what we bought at the end of the day. We bought a precedent.

flyinglizard 5y ago
I agree with you in principle but in reality it was the US who was deterred, more than Afghanistan (which does not really seem to exist in any sovereign capacity). Warlords can operate with relative impunity knowing the US public would not let another Afghanistan take place.
digdigdag 5y ago
You put forth a quasi-patriotic interpretation and a false premise, as the true benefactors of attacks on the 1st world have long been indicated (though not officially confirmed) to state sponsored groups in Saudi Arabia. Yet there they still stand, completely untouched by the quagmire that was Afghanistan and Iraq for the past 20 years. Secondly, we gave an entire generation of orphaned children (now adults at this point) all the more reason to focus their rage and frustration at the United States. I'm not sure what the net effect of all this is down the road, but I don't think it will be a case of these nations fearing the first world. Quite the opposite I think.
xorcist 5y ago
Make no mistake, the Taliban stands to gain from this conflict. Not to mention Pakistan.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Of course they do. They want their country back. They want to pick up where they left off in 2001. And frankly I think they deserve their country back. But I doubt they'll harbor people who attack the first world again. That venture was nothing but a waste of 20yr and blood to them, same as it was to us.

laurent92 5y ago

There aren’t many ways to cope with this realization. The tipping point was Colin Powell’s “definitive proof” at the UN Counsel that Irak had WMD. As long as such criminals are free, we are not. Citizen may even too aware of this, as half melt into guilt of what the USA has done, the other half still have hope but also cynicism, even despair. As for other nations, if I were Iran, Irak, the Talibans, the Afghans, I’d fund efforts to destabilize USA. If I were China, I’d even organize it to ensure it weakens them without weakening the commercial exchanges. If I were Russia I’d tip into the jar too. USA made many enemies, it may be the target of coordinated spy work. And I say this as a staunch partisan of the USA. We should spend more on looking benevolent.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
About your third paragraph: You seem to think this isn't already happening. I think you're several years late.
- laurent92 5y ago
  I didn’t want to dive into how the Congress invasion could be an artifact of enemies successfully mounting us against each other.

mattnewton 5y ago

Cynically? The executive branch got a bunch of new powers in the Patriot act, Halliburton shares soared for a few years, and the only people who were punished were a handful of traditional republicans associated with the Bush administration not already retired before isolationists like Trump took over the party. The main architects all did very well. I can only hope that the next generation learned not to trust government as quickly, but Vietnam wasn't that long ago so I don't know how realistic that hope is.