5 ms·

what is the risk of wearing a mask? that you look silly? the real world evidence is mixed, yes. People are not mannequins, people die. If a simple action of m

what is the risk of wearing a mask? that you look silly? the real world evidence is mixed, yes. People are not mannequins, people die. If a simple action of mine, that might make me look silly, might save some lives (might, I don't know, yet from annexdotes countries that had no problem with wearing masks and other measures faired better) I will do what these countries did (and also wear a mask). It's rational compassion for me. You might say, I don't care (and science might prove you right or wrong after a long while), yet consider the potential cost if you are proven wrong ... Looking silly versus potentially killing people ... The evidence is not in, and it depends on what you value more ;) It's your own choice. For me I decided to wear a mask in public, do social distancing and get vaccinated. I think these are reasonable things to ask from people. You don't seem to think that.

timr 5y ago
> what is the risk of wearing a mask? that you look silly? Fortunately, "lack of silliness" is not the standard of evidence for a medical intervention. There are a great many things that we might impose on others that might have some impact. There are, in fact, an infinite number of these things. Your desire to do these things "just in case" does not justify their imposition on other people. But more importantly: we've had a long time to study this intervention now. Perhaps it's time to gather some actual evidence that it works? After all, it's not just the question of whether or not I want to do it -- it's the question of whether or not huge number of people are convinced that they're protecting themselves, and somehow behaving differently out of a misguided sense of protection. That matters quite a bit. > It's rational compassion for me. No, without evidence, it's just a guess.
- kgarten 5y ago
  Wearing a mask is a medical intervention for you?? wearing a mask is not about protecting you, it's protecting other people. If you don't value other people's lives, don't wear one it won't help you personally. Ok ... so where is the evidence that they don't work? Current scientific consensus is on my side of the debate: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 If you know better, do the experiments and the analysis, get it peer-reviewed and we can talk again. If you are ok with the consequences that you might kill people, don't wear a mask. Fine with me. Just don't tell anybody afterwards that you didn't know and that it was just a guess. i feel this discussion as tedious as the discussion about vaccinations: https://twitter.com/nathanTbernard/status/1425116666908794882 https://twitter.com/nathanTbernard/status/142511666690879488... People are no mannequins ... people die.
  - timr 5y ago
    > Ok ... so where is the evidence that they don't work? I provided you with the link to the WHO meta-analysis of all research literature surrounding masks prior to the pandemic. Here it is again: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext#seccestitle140 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... This covers 172 publications on masks and disease leading up to the pandemic. It is far more comprehensive than any particular paper or editorial you cherry-pick to support your arguments. The best you can possibly say is that there is poor evidence supporting a small marginal effect. And that's if you combine all of the data in an illogical way and ignore that cloth masks and respirators are not the same, and that n95 masks in hospitals are not at all the same as bandanas in the subway. If you limit the argument to the question of non-respirator masks outside hospitals, there's no supporting evidence at all. Spamming the comments with links to the same two papers from 2020 -- neither of which are good (see my other response) -- is not a rebuttal. The only high-quality paper on masks in 2020 was the Danish mask study, which was a well-controlled, high-quality RCT, and failed to find evidence for a protective effect: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 Despite exasperating claims to the contrary, it is unlikely to be true that masks are magical one-way valves, with protective effect in one direction but not the other -- particularly if the virus is spread by aerosols, which are not blocked by poorly fitting masks.
    - kgarten 5y ago
      Your lancet study with 172 publications comes to this conclusion: "These data also suggest that wearing face masks protects people (both health-care workers and the general public) against infection by these coronaviruses." Again, were is evidence that they don't work? For example if cloth masks would not block around 40% in contorlled experiments: https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mSphere.00637-20 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mSphere.00637-20 Masks are not the magic one thing. Yet, it's one of the measures that helps. Don't put too much trust in masks, add social distancing and other preventive measures. Yet, I don't see what the rational behind "they don't work" is. They lower the risk of getting infected and more important to infect others (anything in front of your mouth will do as it stops droplets ... basic physics. how much it does it that's debatable. If I have a very wet speaking language, and am infected with COVID. You tell me I'm infecting the same amount of people if I wear a mask as if I would not wear one? (given the rest is the same??). Sorry, my understanding of physics does not agree with you. Not even going for virology or other topics. Do you have a novel particle model we can use that explains your assumptions? You should test it in a lab.
- kgarten 5y ago
  here's a newer paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24115-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24115-7 (no evidence ... just guesses ... just nature level publication guesses ... probably all wrong)
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    The entire state of Texas lifted all Covid restrictions around March? Had only 16% vaccination rates and had record low levels of Covid infections for 6 months up until recently with apparently the Delta variant. So don't understand why actual reality contradicts this paper. If you tell me that millions of Texans followed social distancing rules on their own without a citation, it will be humorous.
    - kgarten 5y ago
      About Texas: https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/12/texas-coronavirus-greg-abbott/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/12/texas-coronavirus-gr... Check the graph about mask mandates ... Hoping the best for Texas, yet this looks bad.
  - kgarten 5y ago
    "So don't understand why actual reality contradicts this paper." This is similar as saying ... It had the biggest blizzard last winter in Texas, that's why Global Warming is a hoax. Where is this paper wrong? Maybe you spotted something that the peer reviewers didn't. Also you should submit your "scientific" observations of Texas ... because it's real reality (not science ... who needs the scientific method, when we have your observations).
    - nickthemagicman 5y ago
      Hundreds of labs recording tests across the state and reporting the data to the CDC. Vs Telephone call in reporting from the paper you linked. Which one is more scientifically reliable I wonder?

timr 5y ago

> what is the risk of wearing a mask? that you look silly? Fortunately, "lack of silliness" is not the standard of evidence for a medical intervention. There are a great many things that we might impose on others that might have some impact. There are, in fact, an infinite number of these things. Your desire to do these things "just in case" does not justify their imposition on other people. But more importantly: we've had a long time to study this intervention now. Perhaps it's time to gather some actual evidence that it works? After all, it's not just the question of whether or not I want to do it -- it's the question of whether or not huge number of people are convinced that they're protecting themselves, and somehow behaving differently out of a misguided sense of protection. That matters quite a bit. > It's rational compassion for me. No, without evidence, it's just a guess.

kgarten 5y ago
Wearing a mask is a medical intervention for you?? wearing a mask is not about protecting you, it's protecting other people. If you don't value other people's lives, don't wear one it won't help you personally. Ok ... so where is the evidence that they don't work? Current scientific consensus is on my side of the debate: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8 If you know better, do the experiments and the analysis, get it peer-reviewed and we can talk again. If you are ok with the consequences that you might kill people, don't wear a mask. Fine with me. Just don't tell anybody afterwards that you didn't know and that it was just a guess. i feel this discussion as tedious as the discussion about vaccinations: https://twitter.com/nathanTbernard/status/1425116666908794882 https://twitter.com/nathanTbernard/status/142511666690879488... People are no mannequins ... people die.
- timr 5y ago
  > Ok ... so where is the evidence that they don't work? I provided you with the link to the WHO meta-analysis of all research literature surrounding masks prior to the pandemic. Here it is again: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext#seccestitle140 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... This covers 172 publications on masks and disease leading up to the pandemic. It is far more comprehensive than any particular paper or editorial you cherry-pick to support your arguments. The best you can possibly say is that there is poor evidence supporting a small marginal effect. And that's if you combine all of the data in an illogical way and ignore that cloth masks and respirators are not the same, and that n95 masks in hospitals are not at all the same as bandanas in the subway. If you limit the argument to the question of non-respirator masks outside hospitals, there's no supporting evidence at all. Spamming the comments with links to the same two papers from 2020 -- neither of which are good (see my other response) -- is not a rebuttal. The only high-quality paper on masks in 2020 was the Danish mask study, which was a well-controlled, high-quality RCT, and failed to find evidence for a protective effect: https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 Despite exasperating claims to the contrary, it is unlikely to be true that masks are magical one-way valves, with protective effect in one direction but not the other -- particularly if the virus is spread by aerosols, which are not blocked by poorly fitting masks.
  - kgarten 5y ago
    Your lancet study with 172 publications comes to this conclusion: "These data also suggest that wearing face masks protects people (both health-care workers and the general public) against infection by these coronaviruses." Again, were is evidence that they don't work? For example if cloth masks would not block around 40% in contorlled experiments: https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mSphere.00637-20 https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/mSphere.00637-20 Masks are not the magic one thing. Yet, it's one of the measures that helps. Don't put too much trust in masks, add social distancing and other preventive measures. Yet, I don't see what the rational behind "they don't work" is. They lower the risk of getting infected and more important to infect others (anything in front of your mouth will do as it stops droplets ... basic physics. how much it does it that's debatable. If I have a very wet speaking language, and am infected with COVID. You tell me I'm infecting the same amount of people if I wear a mask as if I would not wear one? (given the rest is the same??). Sorry, my understanding of physics does not agree with you. Not even going for virology or other topics. Do you have a novel particle model we can use that explains your assumptions? You should test it in a lab.
kgarten 5y ago
here's a newer paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24115-7 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-24115-7 (no evidence ... just guesses ... just nature level publication guesses ... probably all wrong)
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  The entire state of Texas lifted all Covid restrictions around March? Had only 16% vaccination rates and had record low levels of Covid infections for 6 months up until recently with apparently the Delta variant. So don't understand why actual reality contradicts this paper. If you tell me that millions of Texans followed social distancing rules on their own without a citation, it will be humorous.
  - kgarten 5y ago
    About Texas: https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/12/texas-coronavirus-greg-abbott/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/12/texas-coronavirus-gr... Check the graph about mask mandates ... Hoping the best for Texas, yet this looks bad.
- kgarten 5y ago
  "So don't understand why actual reality contradicts this paper." This is similar as saying ... It had the biggest blizzard last winter in Texas, that's why Global Warming is a hoax. Where is this paper wrong? Maybe you spotted something that the peer reviewers didn't. Also you should submit your "scientific" observations of Texas ... because it's real reality (not science ... who needs the scientific method, when we have your observations).
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    Hundreds of labs recording tests across the state and reporting the data to the CDC. Vs Telephone call in reporting from the paper you linked. Which one is more scientifically reliable I wonder?