9 ms·

Toyota's hydrogen tanks looked promising: 300mi range and 3 minute refill time. It's disappointing it never went anywhere.

s5300 5y ago
>It's disappointing it never went anywhere. There's probably a sound reason for that
Tade0 5y ago
It's 3 minutes assuming the fuelling station is at peak pressure - 700 bars. After the first fill up it needs several minutes to pressurize. Also such a facility costs at least $1mln and is unlikely to ever get much cheaper.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  > Also such a facility costs at least $1mln and is unlikely to ever get much cheaper. How much does a conventional gas station cost? I would expect several hundred thousand, at least.
  - Retric 5y ago
    A more relevant question is how much does a single gas pump or EV charging station cost. A gas station can easily have a dozen pumps for ~500k.
    - cma 5y ago
      Hydrogen tanks can also have multiple outlets (I get that they are more expensive than gas outlets, but the tank is presumably a large part of the hydrogen station cost).
      - Retric 5y ago
        If a 1 million dollar instillation can’t keep up with continuous 3 minute fill ups then it’s going to need significant extra hardware to have enough throughput for multiple pumps.
    - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
      > EV charging station cost. A commercial-grade Level 1 charger (US domestic 110V 15 amp), if they even exist anymore, is probably on the order of $1000 or less - if it breaks buy a no-name replacement from Alibaba until it catches fire. A professionally-installed Level 2 charger without any payment system infrastructure - so one that's basically free-to-use and taps directly off your AC service-panel at 240V 50-90A will cost about $750-2000 including installation by an electrician - most states offer generous tax-deductions for this btw. A Level 2 charger that's part of some charger network, like Chargepoint... I've no idea. The hardware looks nice (i.e. expensive) but I'm unsure who pays the cost of the hardware and installation (is it the landowner or is there a cost-sharing deal with the network operator?) Level 3 chargers... we're talking a minimum 5-figure amount for even a single-stall set-up: as you need a huge (literally: easily 3x3x6 foot) DC transformer appliance for each pair of charging stalls (hidden behind a fence around the corner), connections to seriously high-power mains electricity (imagine a 16-stall Supercharger: that's 8 DC transformers doing ~120kW each: that's 2MW!) in addition to the aesthetically designed car-connector party. According to this article from 2013 (so it's already 8 years out-of-date) Tesla pays $100-200k towards a station, I'm unsure what the cost-split is, but I'd be surprised if the total cost overall was under $250k imo - I also wouldn't be surprised (still) if simply land-use-rights was the majority share: https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/26/inside-teslas-supercharger-partner-program-the-costs-and-commitments-of-electrifying-road-transport/ https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/26/inside-teslas-supercharger...
- darksaints 5y ago
  Why would you assume that? Electrochemical compressors, as well as high pressure vessels, are rapidly declining in cost. Fuel station grade electrochemical compressors were ~$1M ten years ago, $300k five years ago, and about $150k today.
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    Compare that to hooking up to a grid, costwise. All the H2 equipment is 20x more I'd guess than a charging station for an EV. All the other H2 issues aside, you're competing with a good, established logistic network in EVs: the grid. H2 is like any new nuke: you're 10 years out with a ton of subsidy and investment from being a player against the EVs of TODAY. Your price targets to compete will have to anticipate 5-10 years of accumulated economies of scale, tech improvements, etc in EV/grid/alternative energy/storage. I'd be shocked if a bank would float capital to support that given the uncertainty. Just like I'd be shocked if a bank would float financing to a new major fossil fuel development. It might be BANNED in under a decade.
    - darksaints 5y ago
      You can't just "use the grid"...existing grid connections can't handle the load. You have to have high voltage lines run direct. Just the equipment to receive and distribute a high voltage connection, you're talking ~$150k. Then another $60k per charger. And before you can even consider installing anything, you have to have lines run specifically for your station, which can often be several miles. That's definitely not cheap. So no...hydrogen infrastructure is not 20x more. It's probably slightly more expensive than an urban charging station, but significantly cheaper than a rural charging station. And remember: electrical infrastructure is mature...it's not going to get significantly cheaper any time soon. Batteries are the innovation driving EV growth, not the grid. The only thing that is unambiguously more expensive is the fuel. And it always will be more expensive...but prices are going down constantly. If it costs $100 to drive a truck across the US, why would it matter if it costs $200 to do the same with hydrogen, especially if it means not having to stop for hours at a time to recharge?
      - 5y ago
rootusrootus 5y ago
We really aren't that far from a plausible charging setup that can do 300 miles in 10 minutes. And that would be perfectly adequate. The infrastructure to support it would certainly be less difficult than trying to get hydrogen available everywhere.
- iainmerrick 5y ago
  That’s not adequate at all! The lines at gas stations would be massive. Charging via electric at home or in a parking spot seems a lot more convenient, even if it takes a few hours.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    10 minutes isn't that far off what people routinely spend today to fill a tank of gas. Especially people with trucks, which is a large part of the US. Over half the population probably has the infrastructure to home charge right now, so this does not need to replace gas station pumps 1 for 1. I was not suggesting that all of us charging at home need to start using public chargers.
    - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
      > 10 minutes isn't that far off what people routinely spend today to fill a tank of gas. I don't want to "uhm, acktually", but it's less than 5 minutes: https://www.quora.com/How-much-time-does-the-average-person-spend-filling-up-at-gas-station-during-the-ownership-or-lease-of-their-particular-car https://www.quora.com/How-much-time-does-the-average-person-... - and that's including time spent faffing around with the awful pay-at-pump machines' UX.
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        I admit my experience is non-typical, as the only gasoline vehicle I own is a truck with a big tank, but 10 minutes is well within normal. For cars with 15 gallon tanks, 5 minutes is probably reasonable. But in any case, 10 minutes is fine no matter what. If you are willing to spend 4x as much for fuel in order to save less than 10 minutes per week when you stop for fuel, then the problem isn't the charge time.
neaanopri 5y ago
Combination of needing lots of infrastructure, and lack of political will. If US decided that instead of waiting for green tech to emerge, we would just simply stop burning fossil fuels and revert to an Amish standard of living until clean fuels are developed, we could have converted to Hydrogen already
- jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
  That or violent overthrow.
  - behringer 5y ago
    That's what's coming now.
    - jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
      Could be
- labster 5y ago
  As long as Jeff Bezos gets to keep his new half a billion dollars yacht, I’m sure the elite would be happy to see the rest of us finally return to serfdom where we belong.
- foxpurple 5y ago
  We don’t have to convert to an armish standard. We could have just massively reduced car transport and improve electric rail and walkability. I’m always amazed at how Americans consider driving to be a simple fact of life where you either drive daily or go back to throwing spears in the jungle.
  - robocat 5y ago
    You are regurgitating a clichéd argument. > massively reduced car transport How the hell could enough people be convinced to spend say 10% of their income on public transport instead of their car and petrol/charging? https://www.statista.com/statistics/748911/us-average-per-capita-vehicle-spending-by-category/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/748911/us-average-per-ca... > improve electric rail and walkability. So click your fingers and you have cheaply and immediately magically redesigned the distribution of residential and commercial property to suit public transport and/or pedestrian/bike access? Finally, ignoring the above, building out that infrastructure and other changes would cost trillions, which indirectly causes trillions of dollars worth of extra CO2… Your argument is as trite as saying “why don’t we just stop producing CO2?”. Edit: disclaimer: yes I own a car and I also use public transport when convenient (I was even 100% carless for a few years, by living close to work and bus route was accessible).

s5300 5y ago

>It's disappointing it never went anywhere. There's probably a sound reason for that

Tade0 5y ago

It's 3 minutes assuming the fuelling station is at peak pressure - 700 bars. After the first fill up it needs several minutes to pressurize. Also such a facility costs at least $1mln and is unlikely to ever get much cheaper.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
> Also such a facility costs at least $1mln and is unlikely to ever get much cheaper. How much does a conventional gas station cost? I would expect several hundred thousand, at least.
- Retric 5y ago
  A more relevant question is how much does a single gas pump or EV charging station cost. A gas station can easily have a dozen pumps for ~500k.
  - cma 5y ago
    Hydrogen tanks can also have multiple outlets (I get that they are more expensive than gas outlets, but the tank is presumably a large part of the hydrogen station cost).
    - Retric 5y ago
      If a 1 million dollar instillation can’t keep up with continuous 3 minute fill ups then it’s going to need significant extra hardware to have enough throughput for multiple pumps.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    > EV charging station cost. A commercial-grade Level 1 charger (US domestic 110V 15 amp), if they even exist anymore, is probably on the order of $1000 or less - if it breaks buy a no-name replacement from Alibaba until it catches fire. A professionally-installed Level 2 charger without any payment system infrastructure - so one that's basically free-to-use and taps directly off your AC service-panel at 240V 50-90A will cost about $750-2000 including installation by an electrician - most states offer generous tax-deductions for this btw. A Level 2 charger that's part of some charger network, like Chargepoint... I've no idea. The hardware looks nice (i.e. expensive) but I'm unsure who pays the cost of the hardware and installation (is it the landowner or is there a cost-sharing deal with the network operator?) Level 3 chargers... we're talking a minimum 5-figure amount for even a single-stall set-up: as you need a huge (literally: easily 3x3x6 foot) DC transformer appliance for each pair of charging stalls (hidden behind a fence around the corner), connections to seriously high-power mains electricity (imagine a 16-stall Supercharger: that's 8 DC transformers doing ~120kW each: that's 2MW!) in addition to the aesthetically designed car-connector party. According to this article from 2013 (so it's already 8 years out-of-date) Tesla pays $100-200k towards a station, I'm unsure what the cost-split is, but I'd be surprised if the total cost overall was under $250k imo - I also wouldn't be surprised (still) if simply land-use-rights was the majority share: https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/26/inside-teslas-supercharger-partner-program-the-costs-and-commitments-of-electrifying-road-transport/ https://techcrunch.com/2013/07/26/inside-teslas-supercharger...
darksaints 5y ago
Why would you assume that? Electrochemical compressors, as well as high pressure vessels, are rapidly declining in cost. Fuel station grade electrochemical compressors were ~$1M ten years ago, $300k five years ago, and about $150k today.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  Compare that to hooking up to a grid, costwise. All the H2 equipment is 20x more I'd guess than a charging station for an EV. All the other H2 issues aside, you're competing with a good, established logistic network in EVs: the grid. H2 is like any new nuke: you're 10 years out with a ton of subsidy and investment from being a player against the EVs of TODAY. Your price targets to compete will have to anticipate 5-10 years of accumulated economies of scale, tech improvements, etc in EV/grid/alternative energy/storage. I'd be shocked if a bank would float capital to support that given the uncertainty. Just like I'd be shocked if a bank would float financing to a new major fossil fuel development. It might be BANNED in under a decade.
  - darksaints 5y ago
    You can't just "use the grid"...existing grid connections can't handle the load. You have to have high voltage lines run direct. Just the equipment to receive and distribute a high voltage connection, you're talking ~$150k. Then another $60k per charger. And before you can even consider installing anything, you have to have lines run specifically for your station, which can often be several miles. That's definitely not cheap. So no...hydrogen infrastructure is not 20x more. It's probably slightly more expensive than an urban charging station, but significantly cheaper than a rural charging station. And remember: electrical infrastructure is mature...it's not going to get significantly cheaper any time soon. Batteries are the innovation driving EV growth, not the grid. The only thing that is unambiguously more expensive is the fuel. And it always will be more expensive...but prices are going down constantly. If it costs $100 to drive a truck across the US, why would it matter if it costs $200 to do the same with hydrogen, especially if it means not having to stop for hours at a time to recharge?
    - 5y ago

rootusrootus 5y ago

We really aren't that far from a plausible charging setup that can do 300 miles in 10 minutes. And that would be perfectly adequate. The infrastructure to support it would certainly be less difficult than trying to get hydrogen available everywhere.

iainmerrick 5y ago
That’s not adequate at all! The lines at gas stations would be massive. Charging via electric at home or in a parking spot seems a lot more convenient, even if it takes a few hours.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  10 minutes isn't that far off what people routinely spend today to fill a tank of gas. Especially people with trucks, which is a large part of the US. Over half the population probably has the infrastructure to home charge right now, so this does not need to replace gas station pumps 1 for 1. I was not suggesting that all of us charging at home need to start using public chargers.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    > 10 minutes isn't that far off what people routinely spend today to fill a tank of gas. I don't want to "uhm, acktually", but it's less than 5 minutes: https://www.quora.com/How-much-time-does-the-average-person-spend-filling-up-at-gas-station-during-the-ownership-or-lease-of-their-particular-car https://www.quora.com/How-much-time-does-the-average-person-... - and that's including time spent faffing around with the awful pay-at-pump machines' UX.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      I admit my experience is non-typical, as the only gasoline vehicle I own is a truck with a big tank, but 10 minutes is well within normal. For cars with 15 gallon tanks, 5 minutes is probably reasonable. But in any case, 10 minutes is fine no matter what. If you are willing to spend 4x as much for fuel in order to save less than 10 minutes per week when you stop for fuel, then the problem isn't the charge time.

neaanopri 5y ago

Combination of needing lots of infrastructure, and lack of political will. If US decided that instead of waiting for green tech to emerge, we would just simply stop burning fossil fuels and revert to an Amish standard of living until clean fuels are developed, we could have converted to Hydrogen already

jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
That or violent overthrow.
- behringer 5y ago
  That's what's coming now.
  - jxidjhdhdhdhfhf 5y ago
    Could be
labster 5y ago
As long as Jeff Bezos gets to keep his new half a billion dollars yacht, I’m sure the elite would be happy to see the rest of us finally return to serfdom where we belong.
foxpurple 5y ago
We don’t have to convert to an armish standard. We could have just massively reduced car transport and improve electric rail and walkability. I’m always amazed at how Americans consider driving to be a simple fact of life where you either drive daily or go back to throwing spears in the jungle.
- robocat 5y ago
  You are regurgitating a clichéd argument. > massively reduced car transport How the hell could enough people be convinced to spend say 10% of their income on public transport instead of their car and petrol/charging? https://www.statista.com/statistics/748911/us-average-per-capita-vehicle-spending-by-category/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/748911/us-average-per-ca... > improve electric rail and walkability. So click your fingers and you have cheaply and immediately magically redesigned the distribution of residential and commercial property to suit public transport and/or pedestrian/bike access? Finally, ignoring the above, building out that infrastructure and other changes would cost trillions, which indirectly causes trillions of dollars worth of extra CO2… Your argument is as trite as saying “why don’t we just stop producing CO2?”. Edit: disclaimer: yes I own a car and I also use public transport when convenient (I was even 100% carless for a few years, by living close to work and bus route was accessible).