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I really don't get all the hype. This is not a backdoor as it's called in TFA. It's not Apple "reaching into your device". It is literally checking for specific

I really don't get all the hype. This is not a backdoor as it's called in TFA. It's not Apple "reaching into your device". It is literally checking for specific images and reporting their presence to Apply if found. It's not using AI to analyze your photos or anything like that. It's looking for specific images, and only prior to uploading them to iCloud. It won't even flag your own nasty images because the hash won't match. Note: The above assume we're talking about a typical hash of data and not an image-analysis "hash" of what it thinks the content it. This is supported by the language they use. Yes, it's a bit big-brother. But I already assume the authorities can fairly easily get ALL your iCloud data if they ask Apple the right way. You know what's creepy AF? Having a private conversation and getting facebook ads the next day relating to the topic. Talk about an acquaintance acting schizophrenic and get ads about medications and treatment for that? Creepy as fuck. And that was on the wifes iPhone - I have Android and didn't get that stuff, but I seem to remember similar incidents where I got ads for stuff talked about. That's serious voice analysis, not just checking a file hash, and it happens when your phone is in your pocket.

daveidol 5y ago
Wait are you saying you get ads based on things you converse about out loud in the real world because your phone is listening to everything in your pocket? You know that is a myth and isn't true, right?
- shapefrog 5y ago
  You saying one conspiracy is 100% true but another one is laugh out loud impossible?
  - daveidol 5y ago
    Wait, what conspiracy am I saying is 100% true? If your phone was listening to everything you do all the time then you'd need a lot of processing to analyze it on-device and exfiltrate the critical pieces of info (which would be pretty obvious when looking at CPU usage and battery life), or you'd be sending an insane amount of data off over the internet all the time. I'm not saying it's technically impossible - I'm just saying that the ol "Facebook is listening to everything and that's why you get ads for something after you talk about it in real life" is almost certainly a myth with zero actual data to support it other than some anecdotes online.
    - phkahler 5y ago
      There is a possible explanation for the schizophrenia example. My wife did a google search for a particular medication that person had been on and went off of. That was a couple days prior to the ads showing up. So good old Google could have been part of that - not sure how google searches affect facebook ads - or perhaps it was the pages she visited to read about that medication. It's all just f-ing creepy sometimes regardless of how it come about. It sure seems like verbal conversations being overheard is a part of it.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> Wait are you saying you get ads based on things you converse about out loud in the real world because your phone is listening to everything in your pocket? YES. >> You know that is a myth and isn't true, right? No, it's not. I guarantee it. I don't know if it's built-in phone software or if it's the FB app listening while idle, or something else. Alexa seemed to be doing this too, so that's put away in a box somewhere. Here's another story. I got an Oculus Quest 2 and had told a co-worker about it and one of the games I play. He was on the fence, so I brought it in and let him try some of the intro/demo apps on it. Having been convinced that this particular implementation of VR was finally good, he decided to order one from Best Buy to pick up after work. He got out his phone and (not sure what app he looked at, probably browser) the first thing that came up was an ad for the Oculus Quest 2. These are not coincidences - particularly the one I mentioned a few comments up. That's not a topic in our house, but the next day there were the ads.
zepto 5y ago
I agree with you, but I want to correct you - they are using an image analysis hash, not a cryptographic hash. However it doesn’t change the logic of your argument. They require multiple positive marches, and they also require a visual derivative of the CSAM images to match.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> they are using an image analysis hash, not a cryptographic hash. However it doesn’t change the logic of your argument. Yes, I think it fundamentally changes it. A crypto hash would be looking for specific known CSAM images. Image analysis is error-prone and will lead to problems and false positives. I don't care how good it is, that's actually looking at the users images and making a judgement.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > A crypto hash would be looking for specific known CSAM images. Image analysis is error-prone and will lead to problems and false positives. The hashes they are using are only looking for specific known images. Frankly, you should look at the technical docs on the mechanism at this point. It’s not the kind of image analysis you think it is.
mustacheemperor 5y ago
The 'hype' seems to me to be the valid-sounding concern that this tool creates the ability to "look for specific images prior to uploading them to iCloud" on Apple devices, and that while today that capability is exclusively applied to save the children, that tool could later be repurposed by authoritarian regimes or other human rights abusers. Speaking towards what we can assume the authorities can do, we know the FBI cannot compromise an encrypted iPhone because they attempted to force Apple to do that via court order. From what I can tell, the objections to Apple's expanded protection tooling is similar to the objections to adding backdoors to iPhone encryption so the FBI can break into devices used by criminals. It's great to stop the crime today, but how could this be repurposed tomorrow.
- Clubber 5y ago
  Plus it's just creepy that my phone will be scanning my pictures. I use iCloud Photos now and understand anything I put on someone else's servers is subject to search. With it on my phone, it feels radioactive to me and needs to be disposed of promptly. It's just icky.
sureglymop 5y ago
I think the perceived problem is the database of hashes to be matched. If this is a database that can be contributed to by other parties this can be used to "frame" people of a crime. This can the be used for example to get rid of political dissidents etc. Since there are just hashes in the database, this should be fairly easy. This is what I THINK people are worried about. I don't have an Apple device so I haven't really fact checked all of this.
refulgentis 5y ago
It's a dam-break moment for Apple on privacy - until now, people could be unaware, or wave away , concerns about storing iCloud data exclusively on government servers because it was China, promoting ""antivirus"" software on boot because it was Russia, not encrypting iCloud backups because who knows maybe that's just been a complete oversight for years even after detailed reporting on how Apple used it to escape arguing about encryption after San Bernardino, and additionally made it super easy to get the backups, just show me a warrant Now it's on _your_ phone in _your_ country. No handwaving, no sticking ones hand in the sand. The only hopeful argument being posited is that somehow this will "make iCloud more private in the long run"

daveidol 5y ago

Wait are you saying you get ads based on things you converse about out loud in the real world because your phone is listening to everything in your pocket? You know that is a myth and isn't true, right?

shapefrog 5y ago
You saying one conspiracy is 100% true but another one is laugh out loud impossible?
- daveidol 5y ago
  Wait, what conspiracy am I saying is 100% true? If your phone was listening to everything you do all the time then you'd need a lot of processing to analyze it on-device and exfiltrate the critical pieces of info (which would be pretty obvious when looking at CPU usage and battery life), or you'd be sending an insane amount of data off over the internet all the time. I'm not saying it's technically impossible - I'm just saying that the ol "Facebook is listening to everything and that's why you get ads for something after you talk about it in real life" is almost certainly a myth with zero actual data to support it other than some anecdotes online.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    There is a possible explanation for the schizophrenia example. My wife did a google search for a particular medication that person had been on and went off of. That was a couple days prior to the ads showing up. So good old Google could have been part of that - not sure how google searches affect facebook ads - or perhaps it was the pages she visited to read about that medication. It's all just f-ing creepy sometimes regardless of how it come about. It sure seems like verbal conversations being overheard is a part of it.
phkahler 5y ago
>> Wait are you saying you get ads based on things you converse about out loud in the real world because your phone is listening to everything in your pocket? YES. >> You know that is a myth and isn't true, right? No, it's not. I guarantee it. I don't know if it's built-in phone software or if it's the FB app listening while idle, or something else. Alexa seemed to be doing this too, so that's put away in a box somewhere. Here's another story. I got an Oculus Quest 2 and had told a co-worker about it and one of the games I play. He was on the fence, so I brought it in and let him try some of the intro/demo apps on it. Having been convinced that this particular implementation of VR was finally good, he decided to order one from Best Buy to pick up after work. He got out his phone and (not sure what app he looked at, probably browser) the first thing that came up was an ad for the Oculus Quest 2. These are not coincidences - particularly the one I mentioned a few comments up. That's not a topic in our house, but the next day there were the ads.

zepto 5y ago

I agree with you, but I want to correct you - they are using an image analysis hash, not a cryptographic hash. However it doesn’t change the logic of your argument. They require multiple positive marches, and they also require a visual derivative of the CSAM images to match.

phkahler 5y ago
>> they are using an image analysis hash, not a cryptographic hash. However it doesn’t change the logic of your argument. Yes, I think it fundamentally changes it. A crypto hash would be looking for specific known CSAM images. Image analysis is error-prone and will lead to problems and false positives. I don't care how good it is, that's actually looking at the users images and making a judgement.
- zepto 5y ago
  > A crypto hash would be looking for specific known CSAM images. Image analysis is error-prone and will lead to problems and false positives. The hashes they are using are only looking for specific known images. Frankly, you should look at the technical docs on the mechanism at this point. It’s not the kind of image analysis you think it is.

mustacheemperor 5y ago

The 'hype' seems to me to be the valid-sounding concern that this tool creates the ability to "look for specific images prior to uploading them to iCloud" on Apple devices, and that while today that capability is exclusively applied to save the children, that tool could later be repurposed by authoritarian regimes or other human rights abusers. Speaking towards what we can assume the authorities can do, we know the FBI cannot compromise an encrypted iPhone because they attempted to force Apple to do that via court order. From what I can tell, the objections to Apple's expanded protection tooling is similar to the objections to adding backdoors to iPhone encryption so the FBI can break into devices used by criminals. It's great to stop the crime today, but how could this be repurposed tomorrow.

Clubber 5y ago
Plus it's just creepy that my phone will be scanning my pictures. I use iCloud Photos now and understand anything I put on someone else's servers is subject to search. With it on my phone, it feels radioactive to me and needs to be disposed of promptly. It's just icky.

sureglymop 5y ago

I think the perceived problem is the database of hashes to be matched. If this is a database that can be contributed to by other parties this can be used to "frame" people of a crime. This can the be used for example to get rid of political dissidents etc. Since there are just hashes in the database, this should be fairly easy. This is what I THINK people are worried about. I don't have an Apple device so I haven't really fact checked all of this.

refulgentis 5y ago

It's a dam-break moment for Apple on privacy - until now, people could be unaware, or wave away , concerns about storing iCloud data exclusively on government servers because it was China, promoting ""antivirus"" software on boot because it was Russia, not encrypting iCloud backups because who knows maybe that's just been a complete oversight for years even after detailed reporting on how Apple used it to escape arguing about encryption after San Bernardino, and additionally made it super easy to get the backups, just show me a warrant Now it's on _your_ phone in _your_ country. No handwaving, no sticking ones hand in the sand. The only hopeful argument being posited is that somehow this will "make iCloud more private in the long run"