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Discuss HN: How should tech be used to fight child abuse?
For many good reasons, Apple's move to scan offline data on iDevices is heavily criticised by tech-aware people. But that's surely only half the debate.
Developments in "tech" are without a shadow of a doubt one of the greatest achievements of the last 30 years. When used right, they improve our lives, prolong our lives, save our lives. It seems obvious that there should be an application of technology that helps fight crime, child abuse in particular.
But how should that work? A debate where "techies" just say nay to what seems like a win-win for fighting child abuse is incomplete. The world and the big corporations won't stop for us. We need to either suggest better alternatives we can push in the public debate, or at least come to terms with the change, and think about mitigating its negative impact.
I don't have great suggestions off the top of my head, but turning some ideas around:
- Make device searches warrant-driven. Law Enforcement would be able to submit (perhaps streamlined, electronic) warrant applications, to be reviewed by court, backed up by other evidence. For something like matching photo hashes, the bar could be lower than e.g. for searching someone's house. The flipside would be that if the warrant is found to be inadequately justified (even in retrospect), no data found in it is available for evidence.
- On a similar vein, perhaps Law Enforcement only gets very limited information back from such a warrant. For example, only photos matching hashes are available back to them. This severely reduces the usefulness of this as a general fishing tool.
- Sadly, I think just saying "let's not scan users' devices" is like trying to ban nuclear weapons. The cat is out of the bag, it can be done, so it will be done. But perhaps not? Is there an alternative that people with low technology awareness would see as adequate?
- What non-tech analogies can be made and leveraged in the discussion? A recent HN submission [1] compares the change to mandatory weekly house searches; I don't think this would resonate with the general public. House searches are invasive and uncomfortable, much more so than devices, which we all know have a life of their own. Is it like a partner constantly going through our wallets or briefcase/handbag? Or going through our messages all the time? What about mobile phone data already available to Law Enforcement - like it or not, they can access our (approximate) location, call logs, bank transactions etc. with a similarly low level of scrutiny. To what extent is scanning photos on our devices different?
I hope this can lead to a fruitful discussion on the positive ways technology can be used to fight crime, minimising the impact on innocent people.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28127828
EDIT: added missing reference
- fsflover 5y ago> - Sadly, I think just saying "let's not scan users' devices" is like trying to ban nuclear weapons. The cat is out of the bag, it can be done, so it will be done. But perhaps not? Is there an alternative that people with low technology awareness would see as adequate? With free software, you can verify that your device does not scan you. Or hire someone to verify that. This is what I choose for myself.
- rich_sasha 5y agoThere’s only so far you can go with this. Few people will go for a libre phone, for example. Even as a tech-literate person, current state of PinePhone and LibrePhone just doesn’t enable me to rely on either as a daily driver. Also, you might protect yourself like this, but what about people you message and share data with? Gmail sees the emails of its own users and their conversations. Injecting sanity into things like Apple’s CSAM scanning matters to everyone.
- fsflover 5y agoYes, GNU/Linux phones are currently a niche. However, the HN community could help their development and popularization, which is what I try to do. Also, there are phones with preinstalled /e/OS to use now.
- giantg2 5y agoYeah, I would love to get a more secure or privacy friendly phone. I'm not sure I want to leave Android though since I made some apps on it. I guess I could make apps for the other phones' systems, but I don't know...
- galfarragem 5y agoWhen I finished my Architecture master, I used to think that Architecture (comfortable houses, well thought cities) could eradicate most problems in the world. As I grew in my career I realized that ghettos and slums will always exist even if they morph. You can't control almost nothing as an architect. Even if you would find a way to control more variables, you would be creating a dystopia not a paradise.