7 ms·

I don't want to be that guy, but for this job there were lining up 300 more people. Nobody except of a tiny group of nerdy guys (including myself, ofc) is agai

I don't want to be that guy, but for this job there were lining up 300 more people. Nobody except of a tiny group of nerdy guys (including myself, ofc) is against this apple csam move. Just ask your parents or your non-tech friends if it's "ok" to scan people's phones to find those "bad pedophiles" in order to jail then up for the rest of their life. You will be surprised how much support Apple's initiative has in the broad public. And that's why apple made this move. They don't really care for the 3% of people who we belong to. They do it because they know they will have the public and political support.

enw 5y ago
Everyone I asked understood the potential for misuse it introduces.
2pEXgD0fZ5cF 5y ago
> Nobody except of a tiny group of nerdy guys I think you oversimplify this by a lot. No, Apple reputation won't be severely damaged by this move immediately. But I do believe that those "nerdy guys" did a lot to push the Apple brand, and a big part of that push was due to security and privacy. Until recently Apple was always the "privacy brand" and it was hard to argue against it without going the full FSF route of argumentation. This is no longer the case and I'm sure this will deal some damage over time, even if it only starts with the "screeching voices" of the (nerdy) minority. Maybe not directly to their revenue, but certainly to their reputation. Nothing wrong with shaving off a bit of the prestige of working at Apple ;) > I don't want to be that guy, but for this job there were lining up 300 more people. This is the case for many jobs that don't come close to the holy "working at Apple".
- gefhfff 5y ago
  No nerdy guy pushes apple for security and privacy. It is all closed source with data leaking by default - partially not possible to turn off. They rather push devices like librem 5, Pine phone, Fairphone with /e/os, but not Apple...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - xvector 5y ago
    You can't seriously be recommending a Librem 5 for mom and grandpa? That's absurd. The thing barely functions. As the parent commenter noted, Apple was really one of the only reasonable recommendations from privacy-oriented nerdy guys to their friends and family, if they didn't want to go the out-of-touch-with-reality route by recommending the phones you listed.
    - alexvoda 5y ago
      As I mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, when talking about privacy and security you need to talk about threat models. Privacy-oriented is not a single direction. Those recommending iPhones to parrents have a different threat model than those choosing FLOSS devices.
- oarsinsync 5y ago
  > But I do believe that those "nerdy guys" did a lot to push the Apple brand We sure did. We're also ignoring all the celebrities that helped to push the Apple brand (remember the iPod and it's terrible but iconic white headphones?). Popular culture has a much stronger influence on Apple's standing with non-nerds, than nerds do. We like to think we're important, and that people value our opinions, but increasingly that's not true. as the differences between the options diminish to 'probably bad for the world long term' (big tech) and 'probably bad for you today' (open source / pinephone / etc, they're just not usable enough yet), the value of our opinions drops, because there's no real choice between bad or badder.
  - idunnoman 5y ago
    I dunno. Isn't this how Chrome became so popular, and Firefox before that? "We" are the people that support, recommend and install this stuff. Hardware just has longer life cycles.
    - xvector 5y ago
      Not to mention, the "nerdy guys" play a big role in deciding what hardware your company buys, what OS and applications are installed, etc. Friends and family reach out to the nerdy guys for recommendations, etc. The impact is slow but massive.
  - swiley 5y ago
    I Was the reason my family switched from Windows and Linux to OSX back when it was popular among hackers. They had seen the ads with celebrities for years and it didn't move them the way I did. I thought we finally had a unix-like OS that we could all standardize on without my mom freaking out at Gnome and for a time that was true. They remind me every time I bring up stuff like this that I was the one who pushed them to use Apple. In retrospect I wish I had taken FOSS more seriously.
skinkestek 5y ago
> Just ask your parents or your non-tech friends if it's "ok" to scan people's phones to find those "bad pedophiles" in order to jail then up for the rest of their life. You will be surprised how much support Apple's initiative has in the broad public. My Dad is an old teacher today and was formerly a farmer. My view is he clearly understands these issues and has done since I was a teenager sometime in the last millenium when I followed him around the farm and we talked about stuff. Maybe your parents are like what you describe but don't underestimate other peoples parents. They might not agree immediately, but if one is careful many actually aren't unreasonable. Also everyone: stop this defeatist attitude. Instead of asking leading questions, talk about it calmly and politely. Just explain that once this system is in place it will be used for anything, not just photos (or otherwise bad guys could just zip the files). And when everything is scanned some people will add terrorist material (i.e. history and chemistry books), other will add extremist material (religious writings), blasphemous material (Christian or Atheist teachings in Saudi Arabia), and other illegal content (Winnie the Pooh, man against tank etc in China). In the paragraph above there should be something to make everyone from Ateheists through Christians, Muslims, nerds, art lovers and Winnie the Pooh fans see why this is a bad idea.
- wruza 5y ago
  some people will add terrorist material (i.e. history and chemistry books), other will add extremist material (religious writings), blasphemous material (Christian or Atheist teachings in Saudi Arabia), and other illegal content Apple doesn’t seem to do that covertly, what is wrong with blaming them when they actually do above things? This is a genuine question, because rn I see no issue with automated searching CP through their my iphone. In theory, Apple could silently push above updates without any prior practice. Then why this issue became an issue only now?
  - madaxe_again 5y ago
    You know how in history, occasionally the good old king would die and his crazy nephew would take over and burn all the peasants? This was possible because the king had absolute power. Now, you might argue that this absolute power in this case is being used for good - but given the brush the US just had with accidental Nero, it’s worth being wary of how tools and powers might not only be used by current powers, but by future ones too.
xunn0026 5y ago
Luckily Apple is trying to hire nerdy guys. Though, they try very hard to expand their hiring reach to other groups which might also be less displeased about such moves. Remember Apple was convicted of colluding to keep programmer salaries low just as the mobile revolution was started. I think the impact of what they did on the world is undercounted (though, it was visible in the market capitalisation they reached in time).
atoav 5y ago
> I don't want to be that guy, but for this job there were lining up 300 more people. All of which could decide to stand up for individual rights, but won't with similar excuses to the one you formulated. I know in US culture some see it as a strength to be selfish, but yet they complain about the society and the politics this kind of mentality necessarily lead to. If all the others are selfish, why should I be the sucker who pays for having principles? Because suckers with principles shape a society until they don't.
raxxorrax 5y ago
I don't think this is true. If you tell people they scan your stuff if you upload it to the cloud, a lot of people ask for alternatives. I tell them that they can have a reasonable backup and network storage for a small amount of money and I believe their data is much safer on there.
erhk 5y ago
We are a part of the public and we can influence politicians. Spread the word.
hughrr 5y ago
If you think that you’re completely wrong. I have been asked about it by four non technical people so far after it made national news in the UK. There is a lot of anti surveillance sentiment here and it’s appearing in general public regularly. I regularly go out with groups of random people on Meetup with no shared technical interest as well and I’m surprised at how much anti tracking and surveillance sentiment there is. It got to the point that out of 25 people on a trip out no one used NHS track and trace because they don’t trust it or don’t own a smartphone. This is across the 20-50 age group.
- FridayoLeary 5y ago
  >no one used NHS track and trace Why would they? so they can get to stay quarantined for 2 weeks?
npteljes 5y ago
I agree with you, the general public doesn't give a shit. There will be headlines for a few times, some people change their phones, and that'll be it. The biggest of these movements, I think, is the "de-googling" one. There's a myriad of articles, subreddits, guides, websites even, listing alternatives. And look what happened to Google. Nothing. When the alternative to apple's surveillance is to smash the phone against a wall, and buy something that's much less convenient, suddenly surveillance is not that big of a problem. And this is very important to note because many world's powerful entities are moving in this direction.
- idunnoman 5y ago
  But it doesn't happen over night. The cracks are forming though. Duckduckgo.com is now at 93,533,476 searches daily. My non-technical brother just purchased a 3 year Fastmail account and switched from Chrome to Firefox. For added effect, he bought a subscription to Bitwarden. I didn't push him to do any of this, I just told him what I'm using. His wife refused to put an internet enabled webcam in their new babies room, citing security concerns. It's happening. But Rome wasn't built in a day.
ChrisRR 5y ago
And so what? People are well within their rights not to work for companies they find unethical. Yes, it won't make a dent in Apple's finances, but at least that person can sleep better not supporting a company they find immoral
lovelyviking 5y ago
>Nobody except of a tiny group ... were against hitler, ussr (inside ussr), unlimited king's powers, religion fanaticism, witch hunting, etc ... in the beginning today it's surveillance and attempts to legalize such abuses by Apple using some BS cover story intended to create emotional response and this way to fog the real issue: Spyware Engine installation/legalization
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
trangus_1985 5y ago
> but for this job there were lining up 300 more people let them take it then. I try to minimize the blood on my hands. >Just ask your parents or your non-tech friends My parents were unhappy with it - they're non technical and not particularly concerned with privacy. I don't think they'll switch but they did ask how to mitigate it. I'm currently scrambling for a (friendly) alternative to icloud photos. > They don't really care for the 3% of people who we belong to Welcome to cyberpunk dystopia! Grab a devterm by clockwork (no affiliation), and log in, cowboy.
type0 5y ago
> You will be surprised how much support Apple's initiative has in the broad public. I wouldn't be, but that's not the issue, the broad public is gullible, the overwhelming majority probably still believe that Iraq had WMDs before invasion.
swiley 5y ago
I visited my parent's church earlier this year and they're all freaking out. The general consensus is that everyone should stop using smartphones.

enw 5y ago

Everyone I asked understood the potential for misuse it introduces.

2pEXgD0fZ5cF 5y ago

> Nobody except of a tiny group of nerdy guys I think you oversimplify this by a lot. No, Apple reputation won't be severely damaged by this move immediately. But I do believe that those "nerdy guys" did a lot to push the Apple brand, and a big part of that push was due to security and privacy. Until recently Apple was always the "privacy brand" and it was hard to argue against it without going the full FSF route of argumentation. This is no longer the case and I'm sure this will deal some damage over time, even if it only starts with the "screeching voices" of the (nerdy) minority. Maybe not directly to their revenue, but certainly to their reputation. Nothing wrong with shaving off a bit of the prestige of working at Apple ;) > I don't want to be that guy, but for this job there were lining up 300 more people. This is the case for many jobs that don't come close to the holy "working at Apple".

gefhfff 5y ago
No nerdy guy pushes apple for security and privacy. It is all closed source with data leaking by default - partially not possible to turn off. They rather push devices like librem 5, Pine phone, Fairphone with /e/os, but not Apple...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- xvector 5y ago
  You can't seriously be recommending a Librem 5 for mom and grandpa? That's absurd. The thing barely functions. As the parent commenter noted, Apple was really one of the only reasonable recommendations from privacy-oriented nerdy guys to their friends and family, if they didn't want to go the out-of-touch-with-reality route by recommending the phones you listed.
  - alexvoda 5y ago
    As I mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, when talking about privacy and security you need to talk about threat models. Privacy-oriented is not a single direction. Those recommending iPhones to parrents have a different threat model than those choosing FLOSS devices.
oarsinsync 5y ago
> But I do believe that those "nerdy guys" did a lot to push the Apple brand We sure did. We're also ignoring all the celebrities that helped to push the Apple brand (remember the iPod and it's terrible but iconic white headphones?). Popular culture has a much stronger influence on Apple's standing with non-nerds, than nerds do. We like to think we're important, and that people value our opinions, but increasingly that's not true. as the differences between the options diminish to 'probably bad for the world long term' (big tech) and 'probably bad for you today' (open source / pinephone / etc, they're just not usable enough yet), the value of our opinions drops, because there's no real choice between bad or badder.
- idunnoman 5y ago
  I dunno. Isn't this how Chrome became so popular, and Firefox before that? "We" are the people that support, recommend and install this stuff. Hardware just has longer life cycles.
  - xvector 5y ago
    Not to mention, the "nerdy guys" play a big role in deciding what hardware your company buys, what OS and applications are installed, etc. Friends and family reach out to the nerdy guys for recommendations, etc. The impact is slow but massive.
- swiley 5y ago
  I Was the reason my family switched from Windows and Linux to OSX back when it was popular among hackers. They had seen the ads with celebrities for years and it didn't move them the way I did. I thought we finally had a unix-like OS that we could all standardize on without my mom freaking out at Gnome and for a time that was true. They remind me every time I bring up stuff like this that I was the one who pushed them to use Apple. In retrospect I wish I had taken FOSS more seriously.

skinkestek 5y ago

> Just ask your parents or your non-tech friends if it's "ok" to scan people's phones to find those "bad pedophiles" in order to jail then up for the rest of their life. You will be surprised how much support Apple's initiative has in the broad public. My Dad is an old teacher today and was formerly a farmer. My view is he clearly understands these issues and has done since I was a teenager sometime in the last millenium when I followed him around the farm and we talked about stuff. Maybe your parents are like what you describe but don't underestimate other peoples parents. They might not agree immediately, but if one is careful many actually aren't unreasonable. Also everyone: stop this defeatist attitude. Instead of asking leading questions, talk about it calmly and politely. Just explain that once this system is in place it will be used for anything, not just photos (or otherwise bad guys could just zip the files). And when everything is scanned some people will add terrorist material (i.e. history and chemistry books), other will add extremist material (religious writings), blasphemous material (Christian or Atheist teachings in Saudi Arabia), and other illegal content (Winnie the Pooh, man against tank etc in China). In the paragraph above there should be something to make everyone from Ateheists through Christians, Muslims, nerds, art lovers and Winnie the Pooh fans see why this is a bad idea.

wruza 5y ago
some people will add terrorist material (i.e. history and chemistry books), other will add extremist material (religious writings), blasphemous material (Christian or Atheist teachings in Saudi Arabia), and other illegal content Apple doesn’t seem to do that covertly, what is wrong with blaming them when they actually do above things? This is a genuine question, because rn I see no issue with automated searching CP through their my iphone. In theory, Apple could silently push above updates without any prior practice. Then why this issue became an issue only now?
- madaxe_again 5y ago
  You know how in history, occasionally the good old king would die and his crazy nephew would take over and burn all the peasants? This was possible because the king had absolute power. Now, you might argue that this absolute power in this case is being used for good - but given the brush the US just had with accidental Nero, it’s worth being wary of how tools and powers might not only be used by current powers, but by future ones too.

xunn0026 5y ago

Luckily Apple is trying to hire nerdy guys. Though, they try very hard to expand their hiring reach to other groups which might also be less displeased about such moves. Remember Apple was convicted of colluding to keep programmer salaries low just as the mobile revolution was started. I think the impact of what they did on the world is undercounted (though, it was visible in the market capitalisation they reached in time).

atoav 5y ago

> I don't want to be that guy, but for this job there were lining up 300 more people. All of which could decide to stand up for individual rights, but won't with similar excuses to the one you formulated. I know in US culture some see it as a strength to be selfish, but yet they complain about the society and the politics this kind of mentality necessarily lead to. If all the others are selfish, why should I be the sucker who pays for having principles? Because suckers with principles shape a society until they don't.

raxxorrax 5y ago

I don't think this is true. If you tell people they scan your stuff if you upload it to the cloud, a lot of people ask for alternatives. I tell them that they can have a reasonable backup and network storage for a small amount of money and I believe their data is much safer on there.

erhk 5y ago

We are a part of the public and we can influence politicians. Spread the word.

hughrr 5y ago

If you think that you’re completely wrong. I have been asked about it by four non technical people so far after it made national news in the UK. There is a lot of anti surveillance sentiment here and it’s appearing in general public regularly. I regularly go out with groups of random people on Meetup with no shared technical interest as well and I’m surprised at how much anti tracking and surveillance sentiment there is. It got to the point that out of 25 people on a trip out no one used NHS track and trace because they don’t trust it or don’t own a smartphone. This is across the 20-50 age group.

FridayoLeary 5y ago
>no one used NHS track and trace Why would they? so they can get to stay quarantined for 2 weeks?

npteljes 5y ago

I agree with you, the general public doesn't give a shit. There will be headlines for a few times, some people change their phones, and that'll be it. The biggest of these movements, I think, is the "de-googling" one. There's a myriad of articles, subreddits, guides, websites even, listing alternatives. And look what happened to Google. Nothing. When the alternative to apple's surveillance is to smash the phone against a wall, and buy something that's much less convenient, suddenly surveillance is not that big of a problem. And this is very important to note because many world's powerful entities are moving in this direction.

idunnoman 5y ago
But it doesn't happen over night. The cracks are forming though. Duckduckgo.com is now at 93,533,476 searches daily. My non-technical brother just purchased a 3 year Fastmail account and switched from Chrome to Firefox. For added effect, he bought a subscription to Bitwarden. I didn't push him to do any of this, I just told him what I'm using. His wife refused to put an internet enabled webcam in their new babies room, citing security concerns. It's happening. But Rome wasn't built in a day.

ChrisRR 5y ago

And so what? People are well within their rights not to work for companies they find unethical. Yes, it won't make a dent in Apple's finances, but at least that person can sleep better not supporting a company they find immoral

lovelyviking 5y ago

>Nobody except of a tiny group ... were against hitler, ussr (inside ussr), unlimited king's powers, religion fanaticism, witch hunting, etc ... in the beginning today it's surveillance and attempts to legalize such abuses by Apple using some BS cover story intended to create emotional response and this way to fog the real issue: Spyware Engine installation/legalization

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

trangus_1985 5y ago

> but for this job there were lining up 300 more people let them take it then. I try to minimize the blood on my hands. >Just ask your parents or your non-tech friends My parents were unhappy with it - they're non technical and not particularly concerned with privacy. I don't think they'll switch but they did ask how to mitigate it. I'm currently scrambling for a (friendly) alternative to icloud photos. > They don't really care for the 3% of people who we belong to Welcome to cyberpunk dystopia! Grab a devterm by clockwork (no affiliation), and log in, cowboy.

type0 5y ago

> You will be surprised how much support Apple's initiative has in the broad public. I wouldn't be, but that's not the issue, the broad public is gullible, the overwhelming majority probably still believe that Iraq had WMDs before invasion.

swiley 5y ago

I visited my parent's church earlier this year and they're all freaking out. The general consensus is that everyone should stop using smartphones.