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Scale of Russian mercenary mission in Libya exposed
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- christmm 5y agostrange how the BBC remains completely radio silent regarding the Turkish mercenaries there, and the recent request from the Libyan Foreign Minister, for Turkish mercenaries to withdraw
- enkid 5y agoWhy are you distracting from Russian warcrimes? Whether or not the Turkish mercenaries are in Libya doesn't change that Wagner is killing prisoners and civilians. So why wouldn't the BBC report on this?
- f6v 5y ago> Why are you distracting from Russian warcrimes? Alleged warcimes.
- enkid 5y agoThat's what journalism is, alleging something. Adding the word alleged in front of what they are reporting is only meant to distract from the allegation without adding anything substantive. Of course it's alleged. All human discourse is alleged.
- f6v 5y ago> That's what journalism is, alleging something. It's not journalism if it's based on "this anonymous guy said it's true so it's true". Wikileaks is journalism, not this.
- Voloskaya 5y agoUsing Wikileaks, which probably uses anonymous sources more than anyone else, to prove that BBC is not real journalism for.. using anonymous source is great. Good job.
- pessimizer 5y agoWikileaks has never used quotes from anonymous sources as far as I know.
- f6v 5y agoThey leaked actual documents.
- guilhas 5y agoA war crime is what USA UK and EU did to Libya
- m00dy 5y agoTurks are there because they have been invited officially.
- hutzlibu 5y agoWell, but the thing in a civil war is, 2 (if not more sides) claim to be the official side. I honestly do not dare to judge from the outside. I know it is a complicated mess, with lots of hypocrosy and lots of foreign powers playing geopolitics.
- m00dy 5y agoBut Turks got invited from the side that is officially recognized by the UN.
- baybal2 5y ago> Turkish mercenaries Not mercenaries, but a standing Turkish army unit, which by the way completely stomped them.
- cblconfederate 5y agoNo, mercenaries https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-africa-679a6d6fc549bda59f8627d91d9a363c https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-africa-679a6d6fc549bd...
- baybal2 5y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Libya_campaign https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Libya_campaign Turkey - Col. Okan Altınay † (Turkish military officer)[36]
- brnt 5y agoBut it does? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54547304 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54547304
- f6v 5y ago> There is little doubt that they kill prisoners - something one ex-fighter freely admits. "No-one wants an extra mouth to feed." That's the quality journalism I expect to see from BBC, right here.
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y agoSo, let me understand after Western axis destroyed Libya, ... and as the matter of fact the entire region, stole all gold and oil, now we blame Russia? Neat... I mean we quite hold high moral ground in this...
- enkid 5y agoThat's not at all what this article is saying. It is about Russian warcrimes, something that is clearly worth reporting on. Whether or not removing Qaddafi was a mistake has very little to do with whether BBC should be reporting about the Wagner group killing civilians and prisoners.
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y agoAs I said here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28140897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28140897 I feel articles like these are our personal propaganda. "Lets blame someone else, while our own war criminals roam free". Tony Blair, Bush, Clinton ... they went into several wars without any approval of UN, made huge destruction, civilian deaths and suffering... and nothing, they live happily ever after ...
- enkid 5y agoYou are not disagreeing with me. You are just bringing up issues that Western countries have had and saying "don't report about Russian crimes, report about this.". But those things have been reported on and discussed in Western culture since those things happened many times. So no, BBC, a news service, shouldn't rehash a thirty year old argument (Clinton? Really?) when instead of talking about Russian war crimes.
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y agoNo, I am not disagreeing, I am just fed up with all propaganda, soon I will read Russia is responsible for global warming and Moon rotation. Few years ago we had The Panama Papers, Wiki leaks... huge number of document disclosing, war crimes, offshore banks, money laundering... except Iceland has any country done anything about those individuals? Instead they hunted whistle blowers like a wild animals. So, when someone asked me what are the world wide political system I have one answer - organised mafia aristocracies, everything else is just illusion and PR. Clinton - NATO bombing of Yugoslavia
- enkid 5y agoWow, the comments on this article are strangely dismissive of Russian warcrimes for some reason.
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y agoI am not dismissive about any crime but if we should address any crime maybe we should start with our own crimes first. Clean in front of your house first before you start complaining about neighbor's front yard. Edit: I got -2 point for saying "lets not be hypocrites". I love it. :))) Surely this says something about state of some people sense of justice.
- enkid 5y agoThat is literally being dismissive of warcrimes anyone else commits.
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y agoNo, that means first do your own, and then start bitching about others, because other way I do not see how are we better then those criminals in article. Yes, I know, they are in our turf so now we need to bitch about them. What is the famous quote?, ah yes, "as we need to protect our economic interests" ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
- ransom1538 5y agoThis is a Fallacy. Example: Country A is active in genocide. Country B had genocide in it's history 150 years ago, during that time it was not considered immoral. Therefore Country A is not immoral. Edit: downvotes. You don't think its a fallacy? hahaha
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- chronolitus 5y agoSeems plausible, it fits with the larger theme of mercenary misdoings and their use as an underhanded, unofficial military influence exercised by states. And Russia is particularly notorious for this sort of thing. I wonder how necessary these things are geopolitically, or how they are justified by either sides. Dealing with mercenary forces and their total lack of accountability or ethics as a local civilian can only leave one disgusted, jaded, and with nothing but hatred for the nations which cause or let these things happen. Does anyone here have experience with this topic, and can say what the advantages are, if the goal is not purely to demoralize?
- treme 5y agoplausible deniability is usually the biggest reason. "The group was first identified in 2014 when it was backing pro-Russian separatists in the conflict in eastern Ukraine." Same reason Russia didn't send their uniformed troops into Ukraine.
- baybal2 5y agoNot so much. It was glaringly obvious who these people were from day 1. The idea here is not obvious to a person living in the free world: it is to prevent your "scary, and mighty" standing army shown as weak, and losing in case it got stomped. Seeing the "tzar's army" being weak will inevitably invite a challenge to his power.
- datameta 5y agoOn some level it is also a huge insult from Russia by leaving just enough bread crumbs, intentionally or not, to essentially say "look, we're doing this and getting away with it; else we're not doing it". And it is part of their strategy for both cases to be equally plausible rather than to be overwhelmingly without blame. It is disinformation-as-policy to bolster their political might without flexing their full military. The finest example of Hypernormalization. Embarrassed that their government represents people of my heritage. Путин просто хуйло.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
- egao1980 5y agoSeeing increasing number of non-tech related political posts here. Is it HN or ZH?
- 88840-8855 5y agoSorry for the dumb question, what is ZH? Regarding your observation; I might be wrong, but I think it depends on the time when political topcis are dominant and when hardcore tech stuff is being posted. It seems to me that in the (German) morning hours political stories dominate, in the evening tech stuff is dominant.
- thrwway34 5y agoAnd as expected there is an influx of pro-Russian whataboutists trying to shift the blame.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- timwaagh 5y agoThe Russians didn't commit such war crimes before. It's very unfortunate because in Europe we would probably like to enjoy a better relationship with them. Is would be a win economically. Unfortunately things like this will only serve to lengthen existing sanctions and perhaps get Russians prosecuted by the ICC.
- specialist 5y agoWho's paying these Russian nationals? Russia or Libya? The USA has done every kind of outrage. But it'd somehow be a bit worse if Libyans were paying the USA for American nationals to come fight. Splitting hairs, I know. Bush 41 turned a profit on the first invasion of Iraq. And there's plenty of off-the-books operations like the Iran-Contra scandal.
- bigodbiel 5y agoI believe “pay” is subjective here. These are paid in geopolitical tokens. Libya is a major “exporter” of refugees to Europe, and control over that “trade route” is itself a major “token” to be traded for. Lest we forget “we came, we see, he died”
- thanatos519 5y agoI wonder how Wagner compares to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_(company) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_(company)
- sedan_baklazhan 5y agoAs a Russian I actually don't want to comment on such posts at all. As I see here and in other similar topics, the main result is a "Russian paid bot/troll account" label, and it's widely accepted as a normal response. So much for "freedom of speech". At least the "correct" point of view doesn't get muc arguments against it, right?
- koheripbal 5y agoAgreed. The quality of HN has gone down significantly with its greater popularity. A lot of Reddit refugees bringing their baggage.
- martythemaniak 5y ago"Freedom of Speech" doesn't mean people are supposed to automatically respect or agree with whatever random thing you say. The definition is closer to "Don't kill people like Navalny because they filmed your dacha". A foreign concept in contemporary Russia.
- spyckie2 5y agoContextually, the person is arguing that being called a russian troll / bot is reducing the quality of discussion and is also shutting up alternative viewpoints. The "freedom of speech" comment is merely a vent, and such generalizations is rarely fact... just like "A foreign concept in contemporary Russia" is a vent and generalization as well.
- sedan_baklazhan 5y agoYou are wrong. I'm not saying everybody should automatically like what I say. The issue here is that virtually nobody (here) cares about what you say as long as you can be "labeled", i.e., labeled as a Russian bot/troll account. That's it.
- martythemaniak 5y agoYour comment history when I replied was precisely one comment. Nobody knows what you want to say, nor what your views are. Generally, you should just say what you want to say and no worry about being down or upvoted. But if your views are indistinguishable from a paid troll's views, that's no one's problem but yours. Maybe you should even reconsider them? At least those guys get paid for posting their talking points.
- racialfur 5y agoOfficial govt channel of the country whose Ally's buggest politicin and at the time presidential candidate laughed at what they did to lybia. Western media is cancer
- cblconfederate 5y agoJust wait until the BBC finds out about the Syrian mercenaries that NATO member Turkey brought to Libya https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-africa-679a6d6fc549bda59f8627d91d9a363c https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-africa-679a6d6fc549bd...
- officialchicken 5y agoFYI, your comment is pure whataboutism?[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- cblconfederate 5y agoYou know, i wasn't really going for whataboutism as much as deconstructing the messenger. You see, turkey has been using these syrian fighters (who, for all we know could be former ISIS members) as literal cannon fodder in the nagorno-karabakh war: they were thrown in the frontlines so that the enemy would shoot them and reveal their positions. In return for its involvement in libya , turkey got a maritime delineation deal that is explicitly contrary to international law. And the BBC is not an unbiased source, it is british, and UK has been steadily supporting Ankara's misdoings in recent years like, obstructing security council resolutions for both the NK war and recent cyprus developments. So yeah, what about all that? I m positive that wagner is commiting war crimes, but i fear we ve slid into an un-polar world where world order is unprincipled, opportunist and immoral. - https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-55238803 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-55238803 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_(GNA)%E2%80%93Turkey_maritime_deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_(GNA)%E2%80%93Turkey_mar... - https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1165307/anastasiades-points-finger-at-uk-un/ https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1165307/anastasiades-point...
- officialchicken 5y agoYou didn't deconstruction, you tried to deflect. And it doesn't have anything to do with the original BBC article.
- martythemaniak 5y agoI think it's helpful to keep in mind Russia's grand global strategy, which is simple and informs everything from supporting insurgencies, climate change denialism, election interference, etc. Putin has been in power for 20+ years and he'll remain in power until he dies (he's only 68). During this time, Russia has not seen great improvements as a society. For a few years in the early-to-mid naughts things were getting better as Russia was riding high on high oil prices and recovery from the dismal 90s. But this didn't last long - it all came crashing down in '08 and things have not recovered. Russian gdp per capita was the same in 2019 as in 2008. Covid killed masses of people which they've "cleverly" hidden with stats (it's not clever at all, you can just see the excess deaths). As the world shifts away from fossil fuels, their heavily oil-dependent budget is only going to get harder to manage. Politics-wise, any opposition figure will be killed if they become high-profile enough Things are grim and there's no realistic hope of things improving. For all their many, many, many faults, the soviets actually aspired to improve the lives of people. They ultimately proved inept at it, but they did believe they should and could improve people's lives. Putinism has no such aspirations. Instead the idea is to breed cynicism, fatalism and nihilism into people such that no one should ever expect anything better. To have hope, to act morally and ethically, to dream is to be a fucking idiot. Thus, Putin's MO is demonstrate to his people that the rest of the world is just as shitty as his Russia is. That no one is better than him, because everyone is a hypocrite, everyone is corrupt, everyone is a murderer. This worldview is very useful for many people in the West, hence the charges of "Russian bots" are not quite right. The scores of people defending Russia are not Russia bots, they're regular folk, they just find this worldview useful and want to import it. It's like the IRA and their trolls created a self-sustaining cycle.
- coolgeek 5y agoThis is a good take. To put it more succinctly, in most countries (especially in the west) there are clear lines of demarcation between the public, private and criminal sectors. (The lines aren't impermeable. But the lines exist.) In Russia, those lines have been eliminated. One group controls all three sectors.
- datenarsch 5y agoThere wouldn't be any Russian mercenaries in Libya in the first place, had it not been for the complete destruction of the country by Western forces a couple of years ago.
- guilhas 5y agoWell... if they can fix the current cluster-crap, created by USA UK and EU quick visit, then they deserve a prize
- xyzzy21 5y agoThe US does this as well. I've heard plenty of stories from Special Forces acquaintances...