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For those who are wondering what makes these new batteries so special, here's what it says in the article: "What is new is the resilience of the battery. Histo

by jdhn 5y ago

For those who are wondering what makes these new batteries so special, here's what it says in the article: "What is new is the resilience of the battery. Historically, lithium-metal batteries have been plagued by premature death, with previous record holders accomplishing just 200 cycles before seeing significant drops in capacity. The chemistry developed by the PNNL team was able to maintain 76% of its initial capacity after 600 cycles, blowing the old record out of the water. There is still work to be done for sure, as currently used EV batteries typically last for around 1,000 cycles."

TrainedMonkey 5y ago
I was a bit surprised, but 80% degradation after 1,000 cycles numbers they provide as a baseline seem to be accurate: https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/ https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-ba...
- SECProto 5y ago
  To translate that "80% after 1000 cycles" into more practical numbers: with a 300-mile-range battery, that means you'd have a 240-mile-range after driving 300,000 miles.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  Very people are getting 1000 cycles Interesting graphs here https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradatio...
  - Jeff_Brown 5y ago
    You meant to write "very few", right?
Retric 5y ago
Degradation is less important as range increase. Average 500 mile range * 600 cycles = 300,000 miles. At 350 watt-hours per kilogram a 200kWh battery is 570 kg + housing so feasible. Using a different battery chemistry for ultra high mileage models is probably a bad idea, but it is an option.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  Depends if you use more range to increase total car range, or you want to use less of the batteries to make the car "cheaper". Currently the market is taking any range over low 300 miles and just making the car "cheaper".
  - SECProto 5y ago
    If there were two identical 300-mile-range cars on the market, one had a 1000-cycle-life and the other a 600-cycle-life, I'd take whichever was cheaper as long as the price difference was more than say $2000. And if one of them had physical temperature knobs and a small centre screen, id choose it regardless of the price difference.
    - Retric 5y ago
      I agree, the point of comparison is a 600 mile car at 600 cycles is strictly better than a 300 mile car with 1,000 cycles.
      - brianwawok 5y ago
        Right, but you would never get this choice. Maybe350 miles with 600 cycles vs 300 miles w 1000 cycles...
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      Another dimension is weight, if price per kwh was identical these batteries would be be more efficient by making the car lighter. As well as efficiency and handling this presumably also affects the degredation per mile driven since you're discharging less energy to move the smaller battery.
      - SECProto 5y ago
        True, and tires - either smaller (cheaper) tires or longer lifespan of those tires.
xyzzy21 5y ago
If you charge every night, 1000 cycles is about 3 years. Then they have to be replaced. And there STILL ISN'T any system or process for recycling lithium (lab only, nothing deployed or near to deployment for 5-10 years best case). Part of why I used lead acid batteries for my solar storage - it's cheap, ubiquitous and environmentally far more green than lithium because of the existent network for lead and lead-acid recycling. Plus if it doesn't move (it doesn't) the much higher weight isn't a problem.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  *If you charge from empty every night
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  1000 cycles in a 400 miles range electric car (Tesla sells one already, without this fancy battery) is 400,000 miles. Since this battery chemistry will enable longer range, let’s call it 500-600 miles, or 500,000 to 600,000 miles. That’s pretty high. Also, it’s not true that lithium battery recycling is merely lab scale. Pilot plants, like those operated by Li-Cycle in Toronto, are well beyond lab scale. They’re also in the process of building commercial scale facilities as we speak, not “5-10 years best-case.” Your argument may have been valid 5-10 years ago but isn’t today.
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    I'm not sure what counts as a cycle? Does say running it to 70% remaining for 10 days then recharge at night count as 10 cycles? If so than the actual total lifetime max miles would be way shorter for most city people. Unless IDK if Tesla has a smart setting on their charger or something to maximize cycles at the risk of running out of range.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      A full cycle means 0-100% (or roughly that). Charging 30% of your battery capacity counts as just 30% of a cycle in this case. And yeah, electric cars generally do daily cycling up to 80% capacity to extend capacity with 100% capacity being used for long trips.

by jdhn 5y ago

TrainedMonkey 5y ago

I was a bit surprised, but 80% degradation after 1,000 cycles numbers they provide as a baseline seem to be accurate: https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/ https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-ba...

SECProto 5y ago
To translate that "80% after 1000 cycles" into more practical numbers: with a 300-mile-range battery, that means you'd have a 240-mile-range after driving 300,000 miles.
brianwawok 5y ago
Very people are getting 1000 cycles Interesting graphs here https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradation-limited-mileage-packs-equal/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/12/tesla-data-battery-degradatio...
- Jeff_Brown 5y ago
  You meant to write "very few", right?

Retric 5y ago

Degradation is less important as range increase. Average 500 mile range * 600 cycles = 300,000 miles. At 350 watt-hours per kilogram a 200kWh battery is 570 kg + housing so feasible. Using a different battery chemistry for ultra high mileage models is probably a bad idea, but it is an option.

brianwawok 5y ago
Depends if you use more range to increase total car range, or you want to use less of the batteries to make the car "cheaper". Currently the market is taking any range over low 300 miles and just making the car "cheaper".
- SECProto 5y ago
  If there were two identical 300-mile-range cars on the market, one had a 1000-cycle-life and the other a 600-cycle-life, I'd take whichever was cheaper as long as the price difference was more than say $2000. And if one of them had physical temperature knobs and a small centre screen, id choose it regardless of the price difference.
  - Retric 5y ago
    I agree, the point of comparison is a 600 mile car at 600 cycles is strictly better than a 300 mile car with 1,000 cycles.
    - brianwawok 5y ago
      Right, but you would never get this choice. Maybe350 miles with 600 cycles vs 300 miles w 1000 cycles...
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    Another dimension is weight, if price per kwh was identical these batteries would be be more efficient by making the car lighter. As well as efficiency and handling this presumably also affects the degredation per mile driven since you're discharging less energy to move the smaller battery.
    - SECProto 5y ago
      True, and tires - either smaller (cheaper) tires or longer lifespan of those tires.

xyzzy21 5y ago

If you charge every night, 1000 cycles is about 3 years. Then they have to be replaced. And there STILL ISN'T any system or process for recycling lithium (lab only, nothing deployed or near to deployment for 5-10 years best case). Part of why I used lead acid batteries for my solar storage - it's cheap, ubiquitous and environmentally far more green than lithium because of the existent network for lead and lead-acid recycling. Plus if it doesn't move (it doesn't) the much higher weight isn't a problem.

Dylan16807 5y ago
*If you charge from empty every night
Robotbeat 5y ago
1000 cycles in a 400 miles range electric car (Tesla sells one already, without this fancy battery) is 400,000 miles. Since this battery chemistry will enable longer range, let’s call it 500-600 miles, or 500,000 to 600,000 miles. That’s pretty high. Also, it’s not true that lithium battery recycling is merely lab scale. Pilot plants, like those operated by Li-Cycle in Toronto, are well beyond lab scale. They’re also in the process of building commercial scale facilities as we speak, not “5-10 years best-case.” Your argument may have been valid 5-10 years ago but isn’t today.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  I'm not sure what counts as a cycle? Does say running it to 70% remaining for 10 days then recharge at night count as 10 cycles? If so than the actual total lifetime max miles would be way shorter for most city people. Unless IDK if Tesla has a smart setting on their charger or something to maximize cycles at the risk of running out of range.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    A full cycle means 0-100% (or roughly that). Charging 30% of your battery capacity counts as just 30% of a cycle in this case. And yeah, electric cars generally do daily cycling up to 80% capacity to extend capacity with 100% capacity being used for long trips.