9 ms·

This version of Firefox is also the first major piece of software to be translated into Scots - a language spoken / understood by 1.3m people in Scotland. My p

by spuz 5y ago

This version of Firefox is also the first major piece of software to be translated into Scots - a language spoken / understood by 1.3m people in Scotland. My previous company worked on the translation and they told me they had fun trying to come up with suitable equivalents for technical words such as "minimise" and "maximise". https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2021/08/10/firefox-91-introduces-enhanced-cookie-clearing/ https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2021/08/10/firefox-91-intr... https://www.thenational.scot/news/19494171.major-web-browser-first-available-scots-language/ https://www.thenational.scot/news/19494171.major-web-browser...

jefftk 5y ago
Did you mean to post this on the general Firefox 91 thread? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28128305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28128305
- spuz 5y ago
  I would have if I had seen it!
dmurray 5y ago
Scots is a dialect of English. So finding idiomatic Scots expressions for technical terms, instead of importing them verbatim, really is about "having fun" rather than achieving any extra clarity in communication.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > Scots is a dialect of English Beware fighting words > Modern Scots is a sister language of Modern English, as the two diverged independently from the same source: Early Middle English (1150–1300) > As there are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing a language from a dialect, scholars and other interested parties often disagree about the linguistic, historical and social status of Scots, particularly its relationship to English. Although a number of paradigms for distinguishing between languages and dialects exist, they often render contradictory results. Broad Scots is at one end of a bipolar linguistic continuum, with Scottish Standard English at the other. Scots is sometimes regarded as a variety of English, though it has its own distinct dialects; other scholars treat Scots as a distinct Germanic language, in the way that Norwegian is closely linked to but distinct from Danish.
- daleharvey 5y ago
  Describing Scots as a dialect of English is really about a political affiliation than any interest in linguistics, Plenty of people regard Scots as a distinct language. (Scottish Firefox developer)
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Neat!
  - dmurray 5y ago
    I don't have any affiliation with England, or the US, and would also consider "English is a dialect of Scots". (More than one person in Galicia described the Portuguese language to me in the analogous way...). Still, I think it's silly to go all kayfabe here and treat the languages as completely distinct. I have similar thoughts on Slovenian and Slovakian and Flemish.
    - Fomorian 5y ago
      People that have a vested interest in the suppression of the indigenous Goidelic language of Scotland - on both sides of the England-Scotland border - will always insist upon the full-fledged distinctive language status of Scottish English.
      - dmurray 5y ago
        On both sides of the Irish Sea, too. Hard-line unionists in the north of Ireland have been pushing "Ulster Scots" in the last ten years or so. Not out of any real cultural association with the language or with Scotland - they overwhelmingly identify as "British" - but as a tool to diminish Irish-language initiatives. Every time there's a measure proposed to support Irish, they can propose an equal amount of funds for Ulster Scots. It actually helps them to make the language seem as ridiculous as possible, since the real goal isn't to promote their language but to mock another.
      - daleharvey 5y ago
        Unless I misunderstood your point, that is a strange take that isn't close to being true. There is a large overlap of Scottish language enthusiasts who are advocates of both Scots as a distinct language and Gaelic, the demographic of the recent surge of popularity of Gaelic on duolingo are clear. The overlap between political commentators who both insist that Scots is "just a dialect" and that Gaelic is a dying language that we should discourage is also very apparent. The subtext is pro indy people are generally pro Scots and Gaelic, and unionists are against both of course.
- jwatt 5y ago
  Two of my favorite videos on "Scots": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH8pxfqgSBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH8pxfqgSBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6RGgFoiNEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6RGgFoiNEo
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- lvxferre 5y ago
  >Scots is a dialect of English It's up to the linguistic community to decide that, if their variety should be considered a "dialect" of something else or a "language" on its own. Linguists already gave up that question, it's more useful to talk about varieties anyway. And it's the same deal with Galician versus Portuguese, with a difference - "Scots is a dialect of English" threatens Scots, but "Portuguese is a dialect of Galician" doesn't threaten Portuguese (it threatens Galician instead).
  - gsnedders 5y ago
    Or whether Danish and Norwegian and Swedish are the same language, but different dialects. Depending on how you define "dialect" or "language", they may or may not be. To quote the obligatory quip: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy".
    - dfawcus 5y ago
      "Or whether Danish and Norwegian and Swedish are the same language, but different dialects." I recently watched the Swedish production "Blue Eyes" (with English subtitles), and was amused at the amount of speech which struck me as being 'English with an odd regional dialect'. Usually these were simple 'core language' statements and / or imperatives. I guess that is more the lasting Viking and Dane Law impact upon the English, than English feeding in modern Swedish.
      - lvxferre 5y ago
        >I guess that is more the lasting Viking and Dane Law impact upon the English, than English feeding in modern Swedish. It might be the result of common Germanic grounds, not necessarily lateral influence. I got the same when learning German - sentences like "das Haus ist rot" or "ich trinke Wein" are surprisingly easy to catch up from English. And after some time you start noticing patterns, that help you further.
        WorldMaker 5y ago
- dfawcus 5y ago
  "Scots is a dialect of English." Ahh whisht man. :-) That said, I find I often have to mentally pronounce the various written forms in order to be able to understand them.
- dspillett 5y ago
  > Scots is a dialect of English. You are probably thinking of Scottish English or Scots English, which is essentially English of some words and phrases from Scots and a very strong accent. Scots proper is as much a language of its own as English is. Scots and what we now think of as English arguably have a similar age and a lot of shared heritage, though obviously given how much separation, invading and other reasons for variation & remixing of languages has gone on over time, it is tricky to tie down completely what came from where when.
isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
Hopefully not by the same guy who ran the scots version of wikipedia.
clydethefrog 5y ago
I hope they had a bit less fun than the American teenager that edited most of the Scottish Wikipedia pages with nonsense Scottish! https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/scots-wikipedia-language-american-teenager.html https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/scots-wikipedia-languag...
- amelius 5y ago
  > Despite his well-meaning enthusiasm, AG admitted to making many mistakes. For example, AG used the Scots Online Dictionary to look up specific words in Scots. But the content that AG added to Wikipedia was not a true translation because he did not fully understand Scots grammar and syntax. Reminds me of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bennysomething 5y ago
Lived in Scotland for 20 years, really doubt 1.3m people even know what Scots is let alone speak it.
- lucideer 5y ago
  It's a self-reported stat (census answers), so that many of people at the very least believe they know what Scots is (as they responded that they do speak it). I did find it striking that the same stat for Gaelic was just over 50k in contrast: while I know the level of Gaelic spoken in Scotland is extremely low, it's at least a better known language internationally than Scots is, so I would've expected it to be the more spoken of the two.
- spuz 5y ago
  Oops, sorry I meant to double check that and forgot. It's apparently 1.9m people.
  - sdflhasjd 5y ago
    To be fair, that number is self-reported and combines "speak, read, write or understand Scots". I'm not Scottish myself, but even I could claim to somewhat understand Scots. I wouldn't say so on a census, but I'm sure there are plenty that would. Especially when there's some national pride at stake.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  Most people know a little bit. That's the thing with Scots, it's highly miscible with English so it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
  - Fomorian 5y ago
    Because it's basically a dialect OF English. In fact, literally the only reason it's called "Scots" and not "Inglis", as it originally was, is as the Lowlander Scots gradually developed a sense of national identity separate from the English, they decided that they wanted a national label of their own. But of course, they still didn't want to share a national label or identity with the hated native Celtic-speaking population. And so "Inglis" became "Scots", while "Scottis" - the native Goidelic language - became "Erse", or Irish. The whole thing is insidious.
deanclatworthy 5y ago
I’m English, and lived in England for 23 years. I have never ever heard of Scots before.
- lentil 5y ago
  As a Scot, I find that a bit sad. We’re really not that far away! Does that also mean you never learned about Rabbie Burns in school?
  - deanclatworthy 5y ago
    I know his name and who he is. I vaguely recall some of his poems being recited at school. I like to think I'm a man of the world. I watch a lot of Scottish TV (Burnistoun etc.), have done the NC500 and have plenty of Scottish friends. Of course there is dialect there, but I didn't realise this was a "thing".
    - macfaran 5y ago
      There's a whole cannon of literature written in it (Dunbar, Ferguson, Ramsay, MacDairmid, Henryson, Kelman, Leonard, Souter etc.) as well as a bit of a discussion whether the literature reflected or embellished Scots (Burns and MacDairmid both made up words for example). When people think of Scots they usually think of the Glaswegian dialect of English you commonly hear on the TV. But there's still a whole set of words in common use today around Scotland. You hear it more in rural areas and less in the central belt.
- jahnu 5y ago
  That's really a pity. In England there is a terrible lack of knowledge of the other parts of the Union. It's because of decisions like the not quite full on Scots but truly brilliant Limmy's Show only being shown on BBC Scotland.
ladon86 5y ago
Don’t leave us hanging, what words did they come up with?
- spuz 5y ago
  'mak muckle' and 'mak tottie'
howolduis 5y ago
this version o' firefox is an' a' th' foremaist major piece o' software tae be translated intae scots - a leid spoken / understaun by 1.3m fowk in bonnie scotland. Mah afore company worked oan th' translation 'n' thay tellt me thay hud fin trying tae come up wi' suitable equivalents fur tekky wurds sic as 'minimise' 'n' 'maximise'.
- walteweiss 5y ago
  Now I want to study this wonderful language! Any books I can (try to) read in Scots? Serious question! :)
  - donbrae 5y ago
    Not a book but I run a blog written in Scots: https://makforrit.scot https://makforrit.scot.
  - yorwba 5y ago
    How about some 19th-century songs? https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Scottish_Song https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Scottish_Song
  - eigart 5y ago
    Not a book, but https://twitter.com/Lenniesaurus?s=20 https://twitter.com/Lenniesaurus?s=20 does a fun “scots word of the day” series!
  - mgkimsal 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qeWbC7XtO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qeWbC7XtO0 See how much of that series you can get through. :)
  - JohnicBoom 5y ago
    I've heard the Scots version of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is really well done, and is fun to read even as an American. That said, I have no experience at all with Scots, so my opinion should have very little weight!
dkdbejwi383 5y ago
So does "enhanced cookie clearing" become "pure biscuit clearin'"?
- ricardo81 5y ago
  chuck aw them biscuity hings right oot.
ricardo81 5y ago
As a Southern Scot I'm familiar with muckle, many a mickle makes a muckle. I believe the CSS equivalent of a pixel in browser rendering here is a "baw hair".
dheera 5y ago
I suppose cookies become biscuits?

by spuz 5y ago

jefftk 5y ago

Did you mean to post this on the general Firefox 91 thread? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28128305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28128305

spuz 5y ago
I would have if I had seen it!

dmurray 5y ago

Scots is a dialect of English. So finding idiomatic Scots expressions for technical terms, instead of importing them verbatim, really is about "having fun" rather than achieving any extra clarity in communication.

guerrilla 5y ago
> Scots is a dialect of English Beware fighting words > Modern Scots is a sister language of Modern English, as the two diverged independently from the same source: Early Middle English (1150–1300) > As there are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing a language from a dialect, scholars and other interested parties often disagree about the linguistic, historical and social status of Scots, particularly its relationship to English. Although a number of paradigms for distinguishing between languages and dialects exist, they often render contradictory results. Broad Scots is at one end of a bipolar linguistic continuum, with Scottish Standard English at the other. Scots is sometimes regarded as a variety of English, though it has its own distinct dialects; other scholars treat Scots as a distinct Germanic language, in the way that Norwegian is closely linked to but distinct from Danish.
daleharvey 5y ago
Describing Scots as a dialect of English is really about a political affiliation than any interest in linguistics, Plenty of people regard Scots as a distinct language. (Scottish Firefox developer)
- tomrod 5y ago
  Neat!
- dmurray 5y ago
  I don't have any affiliation with England, or the US, and would also consider "English is a dialect of Scots". (More than one person in Galicia described the Portuguese language to me in the analogous way...). Still, I think it's silly to go all kayfabe here and treat the languages as completely distinct. I have similar thoughts on Slovenian and Slovakian and Flemish.
  - Fomorian 5y ago
    People that have a vested interest in the suppression of the indigenous Goidelic language of Scotland - on both sides of the England-Scotland border - will always insist upon the full-fledged distinctive language status of Scottish English.
    - dmurray 5y ago
      On both sides of the Irish Sea, too. Hard-line unionists in the north of Ireland have been pushing "Ulster Scots" in the last ten years or so. Not out of any real cultural association with the language or with Scotland - they overwhelmingly identify as "British" - but as a tool to diminish Irish-language initiatives. Every time there's a measure proposed to support Irish, they can propose an equal amount of funds for Ulster Scots. It actually helps them to make the language seem as ridiculous as possible, since the real goal isn't to promote their language but to mock another.
    - daleharvey 5y ago
      Unless I misunderstood your point, that is a strange take that isn't close to being true. There is a large overlap of Scottish language enthusiasts who are advocates of both Scots as a distinct language and Gaelic, the demographic of the recent surge of popularity of Gaelic on duolingo are clear. The overlap between political commentators who both insist that Scots is "just a dialect" and that Gaelic is a dying language that we should discourage is also very apparent. The subtext is pro indy people are generally pro Scots and Gaelic, and unionists are against both of course.
jwatt 5y ago
Two of my favorite videos on "Scots": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH8pxfqgSBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH8pxfqgSBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6RGgFoiNEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6RGgFoiNEo
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lvxferre 5y ago
>Scots is a dialect of English It's up to the linguistic community to decide that, if their variety should be considered a "dialect" of something else or a "language" on its own. Linguists already gave up that question, it's more useful to talk about varieties anyway. And it's the same deal with Galician versus Portuguese, with a difference - "Scots is a dialect of English" threatens Scots, but "Portuguese is a dialect of Galician" doesn't threaten Portuguese (it threatens Galician instead).
- gsnedders 5y ago
  Or whether Danish and Norwegian and Swedish are the same language, but different dialects. Depending on how you define "dialect" or "language", they may or may not be. To quote the obligatory quip: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy".
  - dfawcus 5y ago
    "Or whether Danish and Norwegian and Swedish are the same language, but different dialects." I recently watched the Swedish production "Blue Eyes" (with English subtitles), and was amused at the amount of speech which struck me as being 'English with an odd regional dialect'. Usually these were simple 'core language' statements and / or imperatives. I guess that is more the lasting Viking and Dane Law impact upon the English, than English feeding in modern Swedish.
    - lvxferre 5y ago
      >I guess that is more the lasting Viking and Dane Law impact upon the English, than English feeding in modern Swedish. It might be the result of common Germanic grounds, not necessarily lateral influence. I got the same when learning German - sentences like "das Haus ist rot" or "ich trinke Wein" are surprisingly easy to catch up from English. And after some time you start noticing patterns, that help you further.
      - WorldMaker 5y ago
dfawcus 5y ago
"Scots is a dialect of English." Ahh whisht man. :-) That said, I find I often have to mentally pronounce the various written forms in order to be able to understand them.
dspillett 5y ago
> Scots is a dialect of English. You are probably thinking of Scottish English or Scots English, which is essentially English of some words and phrases from Scots and a very strong accent. Scots proper is as much a language of its own as English is. Scots and what we now think of as English arguably have a similar age and a lot of shared heritage, though obviously given how much separation, invading and other reasons for variation & remixing of languages has gone on over time, it is tricky to tie down completely what came from where when.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago

Hopefully not by the same guy who ran the scots version of wikipedia.

clydethefrog 5y ago

I hope they had a bit less fun than the American teenager that edited most of the Scottish Wikipedia pages with nonsense Scottish! https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/scots-wikipedia-language-american-teenager.html https://slate.com/technology/2020/09/scots-wikipedia-languag...

amelius 5y ago
> Despite his well-meaning enthusiasm, AG admitted to making many mistakes. For example, AG used the Scots Online Dictionary to look up specific words in Scots. But the content that AG added to Wikipedia was not a true translation because he did not fully understand Scots grammar and syntax. Reminds me of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bennysomething 5y ago

Lived in Scotland for 20 years, really doubt 1.3m people even know what Scots is let alone speak it.

lucideer 5y ago
It's a self-reported stat (census answers), so that many of people at the very least believe they know what Scots is (as they responded that they do speak it). I did find it striking that the same stat for Gaelic was just over 50k in contrast: while I know the level of Gaelic spoken in Scotland is extremely low, it's at least a better known language internationally than Scots is, so I would've expected it to be the more spoken of the two.
spuz 5y ago
Oops, sorry I meant to double check that and forgot. It's apparently 1.9m people.
- sdflhasjd 5y ago
  To be fair, that number is self-reported and combines "speak, read, write or understand Scots". I'm not Scottish myself, but even I could claim to somewhat understand Scots. I wouldn't say so on a census, but I'm sure there are plenty that would. Especially when there's some national pride at stake.
HPsquared 5y ago
Most people know a little bit. That's the thing with Scots, it's highly miscible with English so it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
- Fomorian 5y ago
  Because it's basically a dialect OF English. In fact, literally the only reason it's called "Scots" and not "Inglis", as it originally was, is as the Lowlander Scots gradually developed a sense of national identity separate from the English, they decided that they wanted a national label of their own. But of course, they still didn't want to share a national label or identity with the hated native Celtic-speaking population. And so "Inglis" became "Scots", while "Scottis" - the native Goidelic language - became "Erse", or Irish. The whole thing is insidious.

deanclatworthy 5y ago

I’m English, and lived in England for 23 years. I have never ever heard of Scots before.

lentil 5y ago
As a Scot, I find that a bit sad. We’re really not that far away! Does that also mean you never learned about Rabbie Burns in school?
- deanclatworthy 5y ago
  I know his name and who he is. I vaguely recall some of his poems being recited at school. I like to think I'm a man of the world. I watch a lot of Scottish TV (Burnistoun etc.), have done the NC500 and have plenty of Scottish friends. Of course there is dialect there, but I didn't realise this was a "thing".
  - macfaran 5y ago
    There's a whole cannon of literature written in it (Dunbar, Ferguson, Ramsay, MacDairmid, Henryson, Kelman, Leonard, Souter etc.) as well as a bit of a discussion whether the literature reflected or embellished Scots (Burns and MacDairmid both made up words for example). When people think of Scots they usually think of the Glaswegian dialect of English you commonly hear on the TV. But there's still a whole set of words in common use today around Scotland. You hear it more in rural areas and less in the central belt.
jahnu 5y ago
That's really a pity. In England there is a terrible lack of knowledge of the other parts of the Union. It's because of decisions like the not quite full on Scots but truly brilliant Limmy's Show only being shown on BBC Scotland.

ladon86 5y ago

Don’t leave us hanging, what words did they come up with?

spuz 5y ago
'mak muckle' and 'mak tottie'

howolduis 5y ago

this version o' firefox is an' a' th' foremaist major piece o' software tae be translated intae scots - a leid spoken / understaun by 1.3m fowk in bonnie scotland. Mah afore company worked oan th' translation 'n' thay tellt me thay hud fin trying tae come up wi' suitable equivalents fur tekky wurds sic as 'minimise' 'n' 'maximise'.

walteweiss 5y ago
Now I want to study this wonderful language! Any books I can (try to) read in Scots? Serious question! :)
- donbrae 5y ago
  Not a book but I run a blog written in Scots: https://makforrit.scot https://makforrit.scot.
- yorwba 5y ago
  How about some 19th-century songs? https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Scottish_Song https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Scottish_Song
- eigart 5y ago
  Not a book, but https://twitter.com/Lenniesaurus?s=20 https://twitter.com/Lenniesaurus?s=20 does a fun “scots word of the day” series!
- mgkimsal 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qeWbC7XtO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qeWbC7XtO0 See how much of that series you can get through. :)
- JohnicBoom 5y ago
  I've heard the Scots version of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone is really well done, and is fun to read even as an American. That said, I have no experience at all with Scots, so my opinion should have very little weight!

dkdbejwi383 5y ago

So does "enhanced cookie clearing" become "pure biscuit clearin'"?

ricardo81 5y ago
chuck aw them biscuity hings right oot.

ricardo81 5y ago

As a Southern Scot I'm familiar with muckle, many a mickle makes a muckle. I believe the CSS equivalent of a pixel in browser rendering here is a "baw hair".

dheera 5y ago

I suppose cookies become biscuits?