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I'd be wary of forming an opinion on foreign education systems from international students, as they're generally of more privileged extraction compared to the u

I'd be wary of forming an opinion on foreign education systems from international students, as they're generally of more privileged extraction compared to the unwashed masses who can't afford to study overseas.

spoonjim 5y ago
Not just privileged extraction, but likely high IQ. The Russian brain teasers are to get smart students excelling. The American system is set up to get the weak student stumbling to the finish line. The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers which is why the high achievers are produced by the parents and not by the schools.
- bodge5000 5y ago
  I think its the same case for much of the west. Here in the UK, I remember maths being not the greatest but certainly every kid got through with a passable level of competance. Unless you have a very high budget, which usually only private (or public as they're called in the uk, but they're the same thing) schools have, you can't have it both ways where both the weakest students pass and the strongest students excel.
- adventured 5y ago
  What you're describing isn't the US system of education. The US system is as bifurcated as the various European nations mentioned in this thread. The elite families in the US do not send their kids to the same (frequently) underperforming schools as the middle class or poor, just as those types of families don't do that in Russia or Romania. > The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers Which system are you talking about? There is no unified American school system. Nothing remotely close to that concept exists in the US. It's not possible to generalize so broadly. There are many different education systems in the US, varying based on where you live (varying dramatically from one state or city to the next even) and or what your economic capabilities are. Your description, if we were to attempt to utilize it, applies primarily to bottom 1/2 to 2/3 of society, not the top 1/3. An obvious example would be elite private schools in and around Washington DC. The Washington DC region simultaneously has many of the richest zip codes in the US, and vast tracts of poverty and many horrible public schools. Washington DC, broadly, presents one of the starker examples of the US bifurcation in nearly all things socioeconomic.
  - handrous 5y ago
    > The US system is as bifurcated as the various European nations mentioned in this thread. The elite families in the US do not send their kids to the same (frequently) underperforming schools as the middle class or poor, just as those types of families don't do that in Russia or Romania. To illustrate the point: the only Presidential candidate from one of the two major parties, since and including the 2000 election, not to have attended a private prep school, was Hillary Clinton.
  - foobarian 5y ago
    Any idea how to figure out which camp a particular school is? There are wealthy zip codes with excellent public schools, but there are also crappy private schools so the public/private distinction is not always telling. Scores also don't work because they test dumb rote learning and have become gamed. I would love to find a school where teachers are the kind who know math/other subject "intuition" behind the knowledge like they had in some Soviet schools.
- confidantlake 5y ago
  Absolutely this. My father was an immigrant from an eastern block country. Just a regular family, his father was a salesman, his mother a secretary. Father was valedictorian of his high school, speaks 6 languages, ect. Scraped together enough money to study at a British grad school, finished in 1 year as valedictorian. Then he immigrated to America. So someone looking at his math achievements might think wow, they really teach those soviet immigrants math well! But it was more like the best of the best immigrate while someone more average like me would be stuck in the old country.
whimsicalism 5y ago
Absolutely this. People seem to ignore selection effects when taking with immigrants from other countries, especially students. These people typically come from the richest/most connected families in their home country* *If they don't come from the Americas
- petre 5y ago
  It depends. Some of these people (their parents) left their home country because of economic reasons. This is the primary reason for immigration from Eastern Europe to the EU and the UK. If you're in the US, yes, the visa selection program requirements make your average immigrant come from richer or more connected families. For instance quite a number of people left my country to the US using connections in neo protestant church communities - that's what I've meant by connected.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    What country? Even many of those who left for economic reasons come from richer families that are leaving because of new policies that are less friendly to the wealthy or previously privileged classes. See, for instance, white emigration from South Africa or Zimbabwe to the United States. Also, to be clear, this is specifically an American perspective and even more specifically, about international students - labor migration from Eastern Europe to the EU is of a decidedly different character and more analogous to the comments I was making about people from the Americas in the US.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    > > people typically come from the richest/most connected families in their home country > It depends. Some of these people (their parents) left their home country because of economic reasons. Another common reason for leaving is discrimination. Those people who leave because of discrimination are very rarely well connected or wealthy, or they usually wouldn't have to leave. Then there are the outright asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants, who are also usually very poor and lack connections.
    - 5y ago
r7fufhrjrududu 5y ago
I think this would be a more credible concern if American teachers were equally empowered to their counterparts. To a large extent what you see out of 'foreign' students is a product of teacher's having adequate power to manage their classrooms while teaching students to standards. Meanwhile in America teacher's are shackled by their things like No Child Left Behind and a union that tolerates faculty getting physically assaulted. You don't see these things being corrected because standards and discipline have been branded as racist.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  The classes where teachers are getting physically assaulted are not the same classrooms raising future IMO gold medalists. Nor are they one repeal of No Child Left behind from becoming so.
  - r7fufhrjrududu 5y ago
    The classrooms where teachers are getting assaulted can't raise gold medalists because the teachers can't create an environment condusive to any real amount of learning.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      The problems start much earlier (in early childhood). I say that as someone who has experienced both sorts of classrooms in my lifetime, which I think is a rarer experience.

spoonjim 5y ago

Not just privileged extraction, but likely high IQ. The Russian brain teasers are to get smart students excelling. The American system is set up to get the weak student stumbling to the finish line. The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers which is why the high achievers are produced by the parents and not by the schools.

bodge5000 5y ago
I think its the same case for much of the west. Here in the UK, I remember maths being not the greatest but certainly every kid got through with a passable level of competance. Unless you have a very high budget, which usually only private (or public as they're called in the uk, but they're the same thing) schools have, you can't have it both ways where both the weakest students pass and the strongest students excel.
adventured 5y ago
What you're describing isn't the US system of education. The US system is as bifurcated as the various European nations mentioned in this thread. The elite families in the US do not send their kids to the same (frequently) underperforming schools as the middle class or poor, just as those types of families don't do that in Russia or Romania. > The American school system isn’t designed to produce high achievers Which system are you talking about? There is no unified American school system. Nothing remotely close to that concept exists in the US. It's not possible to generalize so broadly. There are many different education systems in the US, varying based on where you live (varying dramatically from one state or city to the next even) and or what your economic capabilities are. Your description, if we were to attempt to utilize it, applies primarily to bottom 1/2 to 2/3 of society, not the top 1/3. An obvious example would be elite private schools in and around Washington DC. The Washington DC region simultaneously has many of the richest zip codes in the US, and vast tracts of poverty and many horrible public schools. Washington DC, broadly, presents one of the starker examples of the US bifurcation in nearly all things socioeconomic.
- handrous 5y ago
  > The US system is as bifurcated as the various European nations mentioned in this thread. The elite families in the US do not send their kids to the same (frequently) underperforming schools as the middle class or poor, just as those types of families don't do that in Russia or Romania. To illustrate the point: the only Presidential candidate from one of the two major parties, since and including the 2000 election, not to have attended a private prep school, was Hillary Clinton.
- foobarian 5y ago
  Any idea how to figure out which camp a particular school is? There are wealthy zip codes with excellent public schools, but there are also crappy private schools so the public/private distinction is not always telling. Scores also don't work because they test dumb rote learning and have become gamed. I would love to find a school where teachers are the kind who know math/other subject "intuition" behind the knowledge like they had in some Soviet schools.
confidantlake 5y ago
Absolutely this. My father was an immigrant from an eastern block country. Just a regular family, his father was a salesman, his mother a secretary. Father was valedictorian of his high school, speaks 6 languages, ect. Scraped together enough money to study at a British grad school, finished in 1 year as valedictorian. Then he immigrated to America. So someone looking at his math achievements might think wow, they really teach those soviet immigrants math well! But it was more like the best of the best immigrate while someone more average like me would be stuck in the old country.

whimsicalism 5y ago

Absolutely this. People seem to ignore selection effects when taking with immigrants from other countries, especially students. These people typically come from the richest/most connected families in their home country* *If they don't come from the Americas

petre 5y ago
It depends. Some of these people (their parents) left their home country because of economic reasons. This is the primary reason for immigration from Eastern Europe to the EU and the UK. If you're in the US, yes, the visa selection program requirements make your average immigrant come from richer or more connected families. For instance quite a number of people left my country to the US using connections in neo protestant church communities - that's what I've meant by connected.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  What country? Even many of those who left for economic reasons come from richer families that are leaving because of new policies that are less friendly to the wealthy or previously privileged classes. See, for instance, white emigration from South Africa or Zimbabwe to the United States. Also, to be clear, this is specifically an American perspective and even more specifically, about international students - labor migration from Eastern Europe to the EU is of a decidedly different character and more analogous to the comments I was making about people from the Americas in the US.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  > > people typically come from the richest/most connected families in their home country > It depends. Some of these people (their parents) left their home country because of economic reasons. Another common reason for leaving is discrimination. Those people who leave because of discrimination are very rarely well connected or wealthy, or they usually wouldn't have to leave. Then there are the outright asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants, who are also usually very poor and lack connections.
  - 5y ago

r7fufhrjrududu 5y ago

I think this would be a more credible concern if American teachers were equally empowered to their counterparts. To a large extent what you see out of 'foreign' students is a product of teacher's having adequate power to manage their classrooms while teaching students to standards. Meanwhile in America teacher's are shackled by their things like No Child Left Behind and a union that tolerates faculty getting physically assaulted. You don't see these things being corrected because standards and discipline have been branded as racist.

whimsicalism 5y ago
The classes where teachers are getting physically assaulted are not the same classrooms raising future IMO gold medalists. Nor are they one repeal of No Child Left behind from becoming so.
- r7fufhrjrududu 5y ago
  The classrooms where teachers are getting assaulted can't raise gold medalists because the teachers can't create an environment condusive to any real amount of learning.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    The problems start much earlier (in early childhood). I say that as someone who has experienced both sorts of classrooms in my lifetime, which I think is a rarer experience.