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remember when we had those toilet paper shortages and other essential shortages due to minor supply chain disruptions during the early stages of the COVID pande

remember when we had those toilet paper shortages and other essential shortages due to minor supply chain disruptions during the early stages of the COVID pandemic? now imagine that it was actual food shortages because we outsourced farming for short term profit, food subsidies are a national security issue. Outsourcing food production to maximize(short-term) economic efficiency is exactly the type of short sighted decision that has resulted in China taking over global manufacturing

gbrown 5y ago
Corn based ethanol would like a word. Also, it’s ironic to me that subsidized industrial monoculture has a number of insecurity producing effects: 1. Topsoil loss 2. Mismanagement of surface water and subsurface reserves 3. Centralization and consolidation, decimating rural communities which would be producing more labor intensive food in a crisis 4. Lower biodiversity, increased risk of catastrophic loss 5. The whole system relies on global trade to make useful food anyway If national security were the actual driving force, farm policy would look a lot different.
- sjg007 5y ago
  You should read up on modern farming techniques. That would mitigate a lot of your concerns.
  - gbrown 5y ago
    Thanks… but I do. My state is responsible for more than 1/3 of the total nutrient entering the Gulf of Mexico, and our major city recently tried and failed to sue counties to the north for making their water cost prohibitive to treat. What exactly don’t you think I know about farming practices? I personally know both commodity farmers and sustainable vegetable farmers.
cjonas 5y ago
^ not to mention biofuel from corn actually takes more energy to produce than it provides
- ehnto 5y ago
  The dream would be for that energy to come from renewable electricity, so I think it's still a viable fuel to consider for the future as a holdover fuel for the enormous internal combustion engine fleet the world has. We can't immediately convert everyone to electric, so a good holdover might be making renewable fuels more viable. I intend to keep my car in operation for a long time, as a car for motorsport, so I converted it to E85 for performance and long term robustness of fuel supply. My guess is that as petroleum and diesel fuels go out of fashion, only niche consumers will need combustion fuels, and that will be motorsport and ethanol blends. Companies can already make ethanol racing blends work financially, so I expect it to stick around.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Do you run gas through your lines and injectors before storage?
    - ehnto 5y ago
      Not currently but I still use the car once a week, we have an all year driving season so I just inspect the lines occasionally and I haven't seen any erosion yet. I think I would run unleaded through it if I had to store it for 6+ months though.
    - unixhero 5y ago
      What lines? EDIT: Fuel lines? Are these things which one simply modifies for fun and profit?
      - loonster 5y ago
        There are two statements here that you are getting mixed up. Ethanol absorbs moisture. You cannot store gas that contains ethanol for as long as you can non ethanol gas. If you are putting your car in storage, it is prudent to flush out the ethanol. This can be as simple as running the tank down and filling up with regular gas, and then driving more so the lines don't have ethanol gas anymore. Ethanol attacks rubber compounds in a different method than gasoline. You need to have special lines to run E85 gas. I presume he switched it out himself. Not sure what else is involved in the conversion.
dehrmann 5y ago
I used to not like farm subsidies, but the free market tends to plan for supply shocks poorly, and the cost of shortages is incredibly high, so I don't mind paying farmers to overproduce food.
- moonchrome 5y ago
  But you don't need subsidies for that - you can just buy on the market and rotate reserves
  - nosianu 5y ago
    Having a functioning farm sector a food reserve is sooooo much better than having any amount of food in storage. You can only store so much, it won't last long given the huge amount needed every day. Disruptions that last years rather than weeks or months look more likely now than in the past century. That can be generalized and of course is not limited to farming.
    - moonchrome 5y ago
      Maybe on the US level it makes sense, but I live in a small country and I hear this argument a lot and it makes 0 sense : a) our agricultural sector isn't diverse or strong enough anyway, if we get cut off from imports we are fucked even with subsidies b) ramping up basic agriculture doesn't seem that hard, as in that's an easier crisis scenario to handle c) on the market if global food prices jumped (has happened in the past) the subsidized farmers were quick to export to richer markets at a higher price, I believe US also saw similar price jump effects when China was affected by pork shortages IIRC Best case scenario is government just increases the emergency supplies they already have to cover the period it would take the production to ramp up
      - nosianu 5y ago
        > Maybe on the US level it makes sense, but I live in a small country In case you missed it, this entire discussion here is about the US situation. The "U.S:" even is in the article's subtitle (once you click on the article) and the US and NAFTA are all over the article and this discussion.
AngryData 5y ago
I agree with the benefits of crop subsidization, however the subsidies on corn are way beyond national security. Corn is a very robust crop that grows in nearly any conditions and has limited nutritional value, subsidies need to be spread out among more varied and vulnerable crops. We should also be focusing them on more sustainable farming techniques that don't deplete the topsoil.
eru 5y ago
That might sound appealing, but economics isn't with you here. In addition, the farmland in eg the US isn't going away, just because you drop subsidies and tariffs from corn. People will just grow something else there, when corn isn't as profitable anymore. (Or the land might drop in value.)
- bigbillheck 5y ago
  Farmland in the US has been going away for years, and getting turned into developments and urban sprawl.
  - eru 5y ago
    Do you have numbers on how much of an issues that is?
    - bigbillheck 5y ago
      3-ish percent between 1992 and 2012: https://www.ngfa.org/newsletter/report-outlines-dramatic-loss-of-u-s-farmland-between-1992-2012/ https://www.ngfa.org/newsletter/report-outlines-dramatic-los... (and it's disproportionally the good land)
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    For context, about 5% of the US is developed, and about 45% is used as farmland. Sprawl can be pretty bad and still not have much of an effect.

gbrown 5y ago

Corn based ethanol would like a word. Also, it’s ironic to me that subsidized industrial monoculture has a number of insecurity producing effects: 1. Topsoil loss 2. Mismanagement of surface water and subsurface reserves 3. Centralization and consolidation, decimating rural communities which would be producing more labor intensive food in a crisis 4. Lower biodiversity, increased risk of catastrophic loss 5. The whole system relies on global trade to make useful food anyway If national security were the actual driving force, farm policy would look a lot different.

sjg007 5y ago
You should read up on modern farming techniques. That would mitigate a lot of your concerns.
- gbrown 5y ago
  Thanks… but I do. My state is responsible for more than 1/3 of the total nutrient entering the Gulf of Mexico, and our major city recently tried and failed to sue counties to the north for making their water cost prohibitive to treat. What exactly don’t you think I know about farming practices? I personally know both commodity farmers and sustainable vegetable farmers.

cjonas 5y ago

^ not to mention biofuel from corn actually takes more energy to produce than it provides

ehnto 5y ago
The dream would be for that energy to come from renewable electricity, so I think it's still a viable fuel to consider for the future as a holdover fuel for the enormous internal combustion engine fleet the world has. We can't immediately convert everyone to electric, so a good holdover might be making renewable fuels more viable. I intend to keep my car in operation for a long time, as a car for motorsport, so I converted it to E85 for performance and long term robustness of fuel supply. My guess is that as petroleum and diesel fuels go out of fashion, only niche consumers will need combustion fuels, and that will be motorsport and ethanol blends. Companies can already make ethanol racing blends work financially, so I expect it to stick around.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Do you run gas through your lines and injectors before storage?
  - ehnto 5y ago
    Not currently but I still use the car once a week, we have an all year driving season so I just inspect the lines occasionally and I haven't seen any erosion yet. I think I would run unleaded through it if I had to store it for 6+ months though.
  - unixhero 5y ago
    What lines? EDIT: Fuel lines? Are these things which one simply modifies for fun and profit?
    - loonster 5y ago
      There are two statements here that you are getting mixed up. Ethanol absorbs moisture. You cannot store gas that contains ethanol for as long as you can non ethanol gas. If you are putting your car in storage, it is prudent to flush out the ethanol. This can be as simple as running the tank down and filling up with regular gas, and then driving more so the lines don't have ethanol gas anymore. Ethanol attacks rubber compounds in a different method than gasoline. You need to have special lines to run E85 gas. I presume he switched it out himself. Not sure what else is involved in the conversion.

dehrmann 5y ago

I used to not like farm subsidies, but the free market tends to plan for supply shocks poorly, and the cost of shortages is incredibly high, so I don't mind paying farmers to overproduce food.

moonchrome 5y ago
But you don't need subsidies for that - you can just buy on the market and rotate reserves
- nosianu 5y ago
  Having a functioning farm sector a food reserve is sooooo much better than having any amount of food in storage. You can only store so much, it won't last long given the huge amount needed every day. Disruptions that last years rather than weeks or months look more likely now than in the past century. That can be generalized and of course is not limited to farming.
  - moonchrome 5y ago
    Maybe on the US level it makes sense, but I live in a small country and I hear this argument a lot and it makes 0 sense : a) our agricultural sector isn't diverse or strong enough anyway, if we get cut off from imports we are fucked even with subsidies b) ramping up basic agriculture doesn't seem that hard, as in that's an easier crisis scenario to handle c) on the market if global food prices jumped (has happened in the past) the subsidized farmers were quick to export to richer markets at a higher price, I believe US also saw similar price jump effects when China was affected by pork shortages IIRC Best case scenario is government just increases the emergency supplies they already have to cover the period it would take the production to ramp up
    - nosianu 5y ago
      > Maybe on the US level it makes sense, but I live in a small country In case you missed it, this entire discussion here is about the US situation. The "U.S:" even is in the article's subtitle (once you click on the article) and the US and NAFTA are all over the article and this discussion.

AngryData 5y ago

I agree with the benefits of crop subsidization, however the subsidies on corn are way beyond national security. Corn is a very robust crop that grows in nearly any conditions and has limited nutritional value, subsidies need to be spread out among more varied and vulnerable crops. We should also be focusing them on more sustainable farming techniques that don't deplete the topsoil.

eru 5y ago

That might sound appealing, but economics isn't with you here. In addition, the farmland in eg the US isn't going away, just because you drop subsidies and tariffs from corn. People will just grow something else there, when corn isn't as profitable anymore. (Or the land might drop in value.)

bigbillheck 5y ago
Farmland in the US has been going away for years, and getting turned into developments and urban sprawl.
- eru 5y ago
  Do you have numbers on how much of an issues that is?
  - bigbillheck 5y ago
    3-ish percent between 1992 and 2012: https://www.ngfa.org/newsletter/report-outlines-dramatic-loss-of-u-s-farmland-between-1992-2012/ https://www.ngfa.org/newsletter/report-outlines-dramatic-los... (and it's disproportionally the good land)
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  For context, about 5% of the US is developed, and about 45% is used as farmland. Sprawl can be pretty bad and still not have much of an effect.