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Applaud. When I look at the alternatives (e.g., Facebook), I see pictures being stored in the cloud unencrypted, where they can be scanned for a match with the

Applaud. When I look at the alternatives (e.g., Facebook), I see pictures being stored in the cloud unencrypted, where they can be scanned for a match with the CSAM hashes. Apple, on the other hand, is developing a system to scan for CSAM matches client side, in a way that allows pictures to be stored encrypted, and paving the way for full end-to-end encryption. Assuming that scanning for CSAM is going to happen, which I'm generally in favor of, Apple's approach is more privacy preserving, and reinforces my happiness with their privacy direction.

gambiting 5y ago
If your phone thinks there is a match, your picture will be sent unencrypted to be viewed by someone at apple. How is that privacy preserving? Apple built a mechanism to pull a photo from your phone, without telling you it did so(!!!!!), based on criteria you cannot even inspect. If anything, that's worse for privacy not better - they can say they care about your privacy and yet have a secret way of downloading and inspecting any picture on your super-duper-totally-secure-we-swear™ device. At least Facebook's approach is honest.
- otterley 5y ago
  > Apple built a mechanism to pull a photo from your phone, without telling you it did so No, they did not. This feature is only enabled for photos that are synced to iCloud. If this applies to you, it is because you already assented to having your photos stored by Apple. The FAQ covers this: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Expanded_Protections_for_Children_Frequently_Asked_Questions.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Expanded_Protections_...
  - gambiting 5y ago
    Again, I don't think that's honest at all. Normally, photos are stores on the iCloud, fully encrypted, right? I always assumed that Apple had keys where they could decrypt your iCloud when complying with a legal investigation, where an actual warrant is presented. This bypasses that privacy protection entirely - there is now a way for apple to pull your private photo out of your phone(yes, only if you were going to upload to icloud, yes), without needed an actual court order - it's matched against an unknown database, using an unknown algorithm, and uploaded for "inspection" WITHOUT TELLING YOU. So Apple just decides to break your own encryption, on your own device, uploading your data in secret for verification, because they suspect the material you have is illegal. Like, again, this is bad for privacy, not good in any possible way. I just don't think this is at all compatible with the pro-privacy and pro-encryption stance they are taking, that's why I'm calling it dishonest.
    - otterley 5y ago
      Photos are only stored on iCloud with your assent. You can disable iCloud synchronization of your photo library with a flick of a switch. This preserves maximum privacy. I disagree that Apple is being dishonest. The FAQ I linked to is clear and forthcoming, and explains exactly what is happening. It is true that Apple is doing something they hadn't done before and that few of us had expected, and they're no longer being absolutists about privacy to the same extent they were before, but that's not identical to being "dishonest." Dishonesty, in my view, refers to intentional factual incorrectness (1 == 2), not a disagreement about characterizations. Finally, they're not "uploading" your photos. If this applies to you, then your photos were already uploaded to iCloud because you said they could. And they're not "breaking your encryption," they are operating in a decrypted context because you gave them your keys (albeit implicitly). Further, they're not even uploading your photo from your phone (which, again, you've already told them to do if you're using iCloud) for the purpose of analysis; they're reporting a fingerprint. Please read the FAQ in full - it's very clear. > not good in any possible way Many disagree, and would say that reporting child sexual abuse is, in fact, good.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        >>Further, they're not even uploading your photo from your phone (which, again, you've already told them to do if you're using iCloud) for the purpose of analysis; they're reporting a fingerprint Yes, followed by the actual photo for verification by a human, and if it's indeed a reportable picture it's then sent to authorities. It's very clear from their FAQ that's how it works. That's what I mean by apple "breaking" encryption - the photo is encrypted on the phone, and encrypted on the cloud - except that if their algorithm says it matches(or is just similar to) some hash somewhere, the actual photo will be sent without encryption to them for verification. That's the part I have an issue with. They are not saying to the authorities "hey we found something matching a known hash on this guy's device, do with it what you will"(in which case I'd expect the police to arrive with a search warrant), they do actually analyze, send through to themselves, verify and send to authorities the actual pictures from your phone. The fact that a permission to store the pictures in iCloud was given before is again problematic, because apple repeatedly says that the iCloud contents are encrypted and they can't see them without a warrant - except in this case here, they can and they will. >>Many disagree, and would say that reporting child sexual abuse is, in fact, good. Beyond a doubt, yes, obviously. But the fight against child abuse shouldn't be at all costs, and every technological solution where our privacy is violated should be met with suspicion first. Not to mention the entire discussion about the dangers of this system existing in the first place, Apple saying they will refuse state request to add content detection that isn't related to child abuse doesn't really hold much water, sorry - if doing so is the condition to continue operating in a market large enough, they will absolutely do it and I have zero doubts they would.
pedalpete 5y ago
Facebook is not the alternative. With Facebook you are making a conscious decision to share your photo with the world. Yes, the photo is encrypted but Apple is still matching the encryption to any photograph which they can identify later. I don't have a better solution of how to protect innocent children, but you have to ask, what else is this technology able to do outside of it's intended use.
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
Lol.. if Facebook has them, that's because they're a sharing platform. Meanwhile Apple's invited itself to look inside your storage device. Is this feature coming to MacOS, btw? I thought Apple fanaticism was a 90s-00s thing.
- runjake 5y ago
  Yes, it’s coming to macOS Monterey, as well.
fsociety 5y ago
This is a misnomer. Your iCloud photos are not end-to-end encrypted because they previously scanned them for CSAM. I have yet to see the announcement of a fully end-to-end encrypted photo storage service. They haven’t even properly addressed the serious concerns for abuse of this from malicious actors (individuals, hacking groups, companies, government etc) past, “won’t happen here”.
solarkraft 5y ago
I have a crazy idea. What if encrypted, but not scanned?

gambiting 5y ago

If your phone thinks there is a match, your picture will be sent unencrypted to be viewed by someone at apple. How is that privacy preserving? Apple built a mechanism to pull a photo from your phone, without telling you it did so(!!!!!), based on criteria you cannot even inspect. If anything, that's worse for privacy not better - they can say they care about your privacy and yet have a secret way of downloading and inspecting any picture on your super-duper-totally-secure-we-swear™ device. At least Facebook's approach is honest.

otterley 5y ago
> Apple built a mechanism to pull a photo from your phone, without telling you it did so No, they did not. This feature is only enabled for photos that are synced to iCloud. If this applies to you, it is because you already assented to having your photos stored by Apple. The FAQ covers this: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Expanded_Protections_for_Children_Frequently_Asked_Questions.pdf https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Expanded_Protections_...
- gambiting 5y ago
  Again, I don't think that's honest at all. Normally, photos are stores on the iCloud, fully encrypted, right? I always assumed that Apple had keys where they could decrypt your iCloud when complying with a legal investigation, where an actual warrant is presented. This bypasses that privacy protection entirely - there is now a way for apple to pull your private photo out of your phone(yes, only if you were going to upload to icloud, yes), without needed an actual court order - it's matched against an unknown database, using an unknown algorithm, and uploaded for "inspection" WITHOUT TELLING YOU. So Apple just decides to break your own encryption, on your own device, uploading your data in secret for verification, because they suspect the material you have is illegal. Like, again, this is bad for privacy, not good in any possible way. I just don't think this is at all compatible with the pro-privacy and pro-encryption stance they are taking, that's why I'm calling it dishonest.
  - otterley 5y ago
    Photos are only stored on iCloud with your assent. You can disable iCloud synchronization of your photo library with a flick of a switch. This preserves maximum privacy. I disagree that Apple is being dishonest. The FAQ I linked to is clear and forthcoming, and explains exactly what is happening. It is true that Apple is doing something they hadn't done before and that few of us had expected, and they're no longer being absolutists about privacy to the same extent they were before, but that's not identical to being "dishonest." Dishonesty, in my view, refers to intentional factual incorrectness (1 == 2), not a disagreement about characterizations. Finally, they're not "uploading" your photos. If this applies to you, then your photos were already uploaded to iCloud because you said they could. And they're not "breaking your encryption," they are operating in a decrypted context because you gave them your keys (albeit implicitly). Further, they're not even uploading your photo from your phone (which, again, you've already told them to do if you're using iCloud) for the purpose of analysis; they're reporting a fingerprint. Please read the FAQ in full - it's very clear. > not good in any possible way Many disagree, and would say that reporting child sexual abuse is, in fact, good.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      >>Further, they're not even uploading your photo from your phone (which, again, you've already told them to do if you're using iCloud) for the purpose of analysis; they're reporting a fingerprint Yes, followed by the actual photo for verification by a human, and if it's indeed a reportable picture it's then sent to authorities. It's very clear from their FAQ that's how it works. That's what I mean by apple "breaking" encryption - the photo is encrypted on the phone, and encrypted on the cloud - except that if their algorithm says it matches(or is just similar to) some hash somewhere, the actual photo will be sent without encryption to them for verification. That's the part I have an issue with. They are not saying to the authorities "hey we found something matching a known hash on this guy's device, do with it what you will"(in which case I'd expect the police to arrive with a search warrant), they do actually analyze, send through to themselves, verify and send to authorities the actual pictures from your phone. The fact that a permission to store the pictures in iCloud was given before is again problematic, because apple repeatedly says that the iCloud contents are encrypted and they can't see them without a warrant - except in this case here, they can and they will. >>Many disagree, and would say that reporting child sexual abuse is, in fact, good. Beyond a doubt, yes, obviously. But the fight against child abuse shouldn't be at all costs, and every technological solution where our privacy is violated should be met with suspicion first. Not to mention the entire discussion about the dangers of this system existing in the first place, Apple saying they will refuse state request to add content detection that isn't related to child abuse doesn't really hold much water, sorry - if doing so is the condition to continue operating in a market large enough, they will absolutely do it and I have zero doubts they would.

pedalpete 5y ago

Facebook is not the alternative. With Facebook you are making a conscious decision to share your photo with the world. Yes, the photo is encrypted but Apple is still matching the encryption to any photograph which they can identify later. I don't have a better solution of how to protect innocent children, but you have to ask, what else is this technology able to do outside of it's intended use.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

Lol.. if Facebook has them, that's because they're a sharing platform. Meanwhile Apple's invited itself to look inside your storage device. Is this feature coming to MacOS, btw? I thought Apple fanaticism was a 90s-00s thing.

runjake 5y ago
Yes, it’s coming to macOS Monterey, as well.

fsociety 5y ago

This is a misnomer. Your iCloud photos are not end-to-end encrypted because they previously scanned them for CSAM. I have yet to see the announcement of a fully end-to-end encrypted photo storage service. They haven’t even properly addressed the serious concerns for abuse of this from malicious actors (individuals, hacking groups, companies, government etc) past, “won’t happen here”.

solarkraft 5y ago

I have a crazy idea. What if encrypted, but not scanned?