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This sentiment gets repeated all the time and it drives me crazy. I've read a lot of stuff by RMS and am certainly aware of his concerns. I have an iPhone and

This sentiment gets repeated all the time and it drives me crazy. I've read a lot of stuff by RMS and am certainly aware of his concerns. I have an iPhone and Mac so I guess you would consider that I "ignored" him. This is a ridiculous conclusion. I considered the risks and trade-offs of non-FOSS software, and regrettably accepted them, because the FOSS alternatives had trade-offs that cumulatively (for me) were much worse. Unlike RMS, I am not a one-dimensional person that only evaluates tech on the single dimension of freedom. Tech is not a religion for me; it's just a tool. RMS pontificating about FOSS does not magically bring iPhone comparable FOSS software and hardware into existence. If the FOSS community wants consumer adoption, ratio of pontificating about to building consumer products needs to be much lower.

ASalazarMX 5y ago
TL;DR: You understood the trade-off, and chose to become a product for the convenience. The majority of us here have done the same, because becoming a product is part of the modern life. Nowadays choosing digital purity is like becoming a digital Amish.
- lupire 5y ago
  No one takes you seriously when you describe an interdependent mutually beneficial bur imperfect relationship as "become a product"
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    I think people don't like to think themselves as a product, but that's what we are. We're a potential source of income, and companies will want to know how's your health, where do you go, what do you buy, how you use your time, etc., in order to realize as much of that income as possible. It's a mutually-beneficial trade-off, it's just that one party gains individually, and the other gains by quantity. Advertisers wouldn't care a lot what restaurants you like, but they care a lot about what restaurants people in your city like.
- jaredklewis 5y ago
  Bingo. RMS is not being ignored. People are just making informed decisions that FOSS purists don't like.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    Informed decision is a high bar. I'm pretty sure that most go with habit and convenience. I mean.... Apple could lock MacOSX down tomorrow and charge you $100 for terminal access and "informed decision" people would still argue how good MacBooks are (they aren't that good)
    - judge2020 5y ago
      MacOS personally looks nice and functions in a logical way - so I consider MacBooks good. It’s a personal choice while weighing negatives like how MacOS is not ‘free software’ that anyone can fork, change, and sell on their own.
      - JAlexoid 5y ago
        I disagree that it functions in a logical way. I literally have to have an app to make my bluetooth mouse scroll in the opposite direction than the trackpad, because there is "Scroll Direction" checkbox in both mouse and trackpad... but it's actually one config option. And with every update I hope that they don't screw up that app... OSX has less and less of "less is more".
behnamoh 5y ago
> Tech is not a religion for me; it's just a tool. Ok, it is a "tool", but it's like an axe controlled by another person, not you. Maybe you trust that person with such a tool; I don't.
- judge2020 5y ago
  That much was known upon purchasing the axe - maybe it cuts trees 50% quicker and thus was worth the tradeoff, but now you can re-evaluate your options and purchase a different axe.
- jaredklewis 5y ago
  You are doing the exact thing I am complaining about. I DON'T trust Apple and never said I did; I quite explicitly elaborated on this above. Not trusting Apple doesn't magically bring a trustworthy iPhone competitor into existence.
  - behnamoh 5y ago
    > Not trusting Apple doesn't magically bring a trustworthy iPhone competitor into existence. I'm afraid that'll never happen, at least, until most people don't care about their privacy and are willing to accept one-sided tradeoffs with phone vendors. BUT, there are alternatives like LineageOS that do a pretty good job. They only need more acceptance by public to be able to compete at the level of a trillion-dollar company like AAPL.
    - jaredklewis 5y ago
      Right. And I think projects like LineageOS are super interesting. My beef is just with statements like "people ignore RMS," as I have yet to see any evidence of this. Everything I have observed is that anyone who has heard of RMS is fully aware of his concerns, but most of those people just have different priorities.
  - ryukafalz 5y ago
    > Not trusting Apple doesn't magically bring a trustworthy iPhone competitor into existence. But spending your money on Apple products certainly won't either.
downWidOutaFite 5y ago
Well your sentiment drives me crazy, especially for techies. It is up to us whether a non-feudal digital society will exist or not. It's true that FOSS will never be as good as the monopolists' who are able to pour billions of dollars into polish while tightening their grip over our lives. But if we are unwilling to make sacrifices in this fight then the battle is already lost.
echelon 5y ago
> I've read a lot of stuff by RMS and am certainly aware of his concerns. > RMS pontificating [...] Uh, no. RMS was right all along and you're still not getting it. You bought devices you can't upgrade, you can't run software on, that oppress indie devs, that tax 30% of the market, that sell out freedom fighters in oppressive regimes, and that now spy on you. And now you realize the problem. The only way out of this madness is to get the sensible representatives in Congress to move forward with an antitrust case. Breaking up the power monopoly will perhaps get us back to a place where we have rights. The way it is now, Apple is a central point of failure. Again, everything RMS spoke was truth, and it's here again rearing its ugly head.
- lupire 5y ago
  The real-world alternative to Apple is Microsoft, Google, and Blackberry, not GNU. Because almost no one and no money cares about GNU.
  - echelon 5y ago
    The real world alternative is healthy competition.
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      Which is definitely absent in mobile phone space.
  - weikju 5y ago
    You're right. Free Software isn't there yet. So I just took some of my money and donated to a few projects.. Drop in the ocean, but a drop nonetheless.
  - alwillis 5y ago
    If anyone is going the purist route, it means no Dropbox, Facebook, OneDrive, etc. since they’ve been scanning for CSAM content way before Apple.
pshirshov 5y ago
> If the FOSS community wants consumer adoption, ratio of pontificating about to building consumer products needs to be much lower. Actually it's not like FOSS community is fighting for your adoption, you know? It's you who should do something in order to make good things happen.
- zaphar 5y ago
  He did. He bought Apple products. That's the whole point.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    They didn't buy Apple products for any ethical reason, and didn't claim to have done. They bought Apple products because RMS didn't personally make the UI of Free Software polished enough for them.
pessimizer 5y ago
This is a very solipsistic way to look at the world. FOSS has no duty to try to appeal to you personally, and if you accept the end of your privacy over UI niggles, that's your choice to make. The reason Apple can spend so much on UI is because of your willingness to eat whatever they serve you. After emancipation, there were plenty of slaves who wouldn't leave the plantation, and became slaves-by-another-name in the sharecropping system. I don't think any of them were so up their own asses that they blamed the slaves who left for not making it easier to leave. Also, RMS didn't talk about "FOSS." He talked about the inevitable future if we continued our trajectory, and suggested Free Software as the solution. I'm also not going to make lowering your carbon emissions just as easy and convenient as using all of the carbon you want. Take responsibility for yourself, or at least don't actively denigrate people for being right.
- syshum 5y ago
  You have hit on one of the problem permeating modern society. No one wants to take personal responsibility for anything. it always some one else that is to blame, the rich, the evil corporation, the right wing, the left wing, china,.... etc etc etc
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    This is easy to say, but it’s clear from decades of cognitive science that people find it extremely hard to avoid the affordances and incentives in their environment. Blaming the victims of a concerted corporate and political effort to constrain individual liberties seems churlish. This is a tragedy of the commons and the only solution is cooperation and dialogue to set common standards and norms.
- jaredklewis 5y ago
  But I never asked FOSS to make me anything. All I said is if the FOSS community wants consumer adoption, the path forward is making things consumers like, NOT blaming us for "ignoring" RMS, because no one ever did that. Basically everything your post implies (that I think I am entitled to something, that I think everything should be easy, etc...) is not true. As I keep pointing out again and again, all I'm saying is that people don't use FOSS, but it's not because they don't value privacy, not because they don't value freedom, and for the love of biscuits not because of anything to do with RMS or ignoring him. The options are use an iPhone (not freedom), use an Android phone (not freedom), or use something like LineageOS. Using something like LineageOS is major commitment that most people don't have room in their lives for, because they have different priorities, which might also be very good. EDIT: Here's a metaphor, it'd be like if you asked your friend who owns a car with an ICE why he keeps ignoring Al Gore's warnings about the climate. It's like, Al Gore can be right, your friend can believe in Climate change, and he can still decide he needs an ICE car because he's barely making ends meet and is trying to support a family. You can claim that your friend has made bad choices, but there is no argument that he "ignored" Al Gore.

ASalazarMX 5y ago

TL;DR: You understood the trade-off, and chose to become a product for the convenience. The majority of us here have done the same, because becoming a product is part of the modern life. Nowadays choosing digital purity is like becoming a digital Amish.

lupire 5y ago
No one takes you seriously when you describe an interdependent mutually beneficial bur imperfect relationship as "become a product"
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  I think people don't like to think themselves as a product, but that's what we are. We're a potential source of income, and companies will want to know how's your health, where do you go, what do you buy, how you use your time, etc., in order to realize as much of that income as possible. It's a mutually-beneficial trade-off, it's just that one party gains individually, and the other gains by quantity. Advertisers wouldn't care a lot what restaurants you like, but they care a lot about what restaurants people in your city like.
jaredklewis 5y ago
Bingo. RMS is not being ignored. People are just making informed decisions that FOSS purists don't like.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  Informed decision is a high bar. I'm pretty sure that most go with habit and convenience. I mean.... Apple could lock MacOSX down tomorrow and charge you $100 for terminal access and "informed decision" people would still argue how good MacBooks are (they aren't that good)
  - judge2020 5y ago
    MacOS personally looks nice and functions in a logical way - so I consider MacBooks good. It’s a personal choice while weighing negatives like how MacOS is not ‘free software’ that anyone can fork, change, and sell on their own.
    - JAlexoid 5y ago
      I disagree that it functions in a logical way. I literally have to have an app to make my bluetooth mouse scroll in the opposite direction than the trackpad, because there is "Scroll Direction" checkbox in both mouse and trackpad... but it's actually one config option. And with every update I hope that they don't screw up that app... OSX has less and less of "less is more".

behnamoh 5y ago

> Tech is not a religion for me; it's just a tool. Ok, it is a "tool", but it's like an axe controlled by another person, not you. Maybe you trust that person with such a tool; I don't.

judge2020 5y ago
That much was known upon purchasing the axe - maybe it cuts trees 50% quicker and thus was worth the tradeoff, but now you can re-evaluate your options and purchase a different axe.
jaredklewis 5y ago
You are doing the exact thing I am complaining about. I DON'T trust Apple and never said I did; I quite explicitly elaborated on this above. Not trusting Apple doesn't magically bring a trustworthy iPhone competitor into existence.
- behnamoh 5y ago
  > Not trusting Apple doesn't magically bring a trustworthy iPhone competitor into existence. I'm afraid that'll never happen, at least, until most people don't care about their privacy and are willing to accept one-sided tradeoffs with phone vendors. BUT, there are alternatives like LineageOS that do a pretty good job. They only need more acceptance by public to be able to compete at the level of a trillion-dollar company like AAPL.
  - jaredklewis 5y ago
    Right. And I think projects like LineageOS are super interesting. My beef is just with statements like "people ignore RMS," as I have yet to see any evidence of this. Everything I have observed is that anyone who has heard of RMS is fully aware of his concerns, but most of those people just have different priorities.
- ryukafalz 5y ago
  > Not trusting Apple doesn't magically bring a trustworthy iPhone competitor into existence. But spending your money on Apple products certainly won't either.

downWidOutaFite 5y ago

Well your sentiment drives me crazy, especially for techies. It is up to us whether a non-feudal digital society will exist or not. It's true that FOSS will never be as good as the monopolists' who are able to pour billions of dollars into polish while tightening their grip over our lives. But if we are unwilling to make sacrifices in this fight then the battle is already lost.

echelon 5y ago

> I've read a lot of stuff by RMS and am certainly aware of his concerns. > RMS pontificating [...] Uh, no. RMS was right all along and you're still not getting it. You bought devices you can't upgrade, you can't run software on, that oppress indie devs, that tax 30% of the market, that sell out freedom fighters in oppressive regimes, and that now spy on you. And now you realize the problem. The only way out of this madness is to get the sensible representatives in Congress to move forward with an antitrust case. Breaking up the power monopoly will perhaps get us back to a place where we have rights. The way it is now, Apple is a central point of failure. Again, everything RMS spoke was truth, and it's here again rearing its ugly head.

lupire 5y ago
The real-world alternative to Apple is Microsoft, Google, and Blackberry, not GNU. Because almost no one and no money cares about GNU.
- echelon 5y ago
  The real world alternative is healthy competition.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    Which is definitely absent in mobile phone space.
- weikju 5y ago
  You're right. Free Software isn't there yet. So I just took some of my money and donated to a few projects.. Drop in the ocean, but a drop nonetheless.
- alwillis 5y ago
  If anyone is going the purist route, it means no Dropbox, Facebook, OneDrive, etc. since they’ve been scanning for CSAM content way before Apple.

pshirshov 5y ago

> If the FOSS community wants consumer adoption, ratio of pontificating about to building consumer products needs to be much lower. Actually it's not like FOSS community is fighting for your adoption, you know? It's you who should do something in order to make good things happen.

zaphar 5y ago
He did. He bought Apple products. That's the whole point.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  They didn't buy Apple products for any ethical reason, and didn't claim to have done. They bought Apple products because RMS didn't personally make the UI of Free Software polished enough for them.

pessimizer 5y ago

This is a very solipsistic way to look at the world. FOSS has no duty to try to appeal to you personally, and if you accept the end of your privacy over UI niggles, that's your choice to make. The reason Apple can spend so much on UI is because of your willingness to eat whatever they serve you. After emancipation, there were plenty of slaves who wouldn't leave the plantation, and became slaves-by-another-name in the sharecropping system. I don't think any of them were so up their own asses that they blamed the slaves who left for not making it easier to leave. Also, RMS didn't talk about "FOSS." He talked about the inevitable future if we continued our trajectory, and suggested Free Software as the solution. I'm also not going to make lowering your carbon emissions just as easy and convenient as using all of the carbon you want. Take responsibility for yourself, or at least don't actively denigrate people for being right.

syshum 5y ago
You have hit on one of the problem permeating modern society. No one wants to take personal responsibility for anything. it always some one else that is to blame, the rich, the evil corporation, the right wing, the left wing, china,.... etc etc etc
- bigfudge 5y ago
  This is easy to say, but it’s clear from decades of cognitive science that people find it extremely hard to avoid the affordances and incentives in their environment. Blaming the victims of a concerted corporate and political effort to constrain individual liberties seems churlish. This is a tragedy of the commons and the only solution is cooperation and dialogue to set common standards and norms.
jaredklewis 5y ago
But I never asked FOSS to make me anything. All I said is if the FOSS community wants consumer adoption, the path forward is making things consumers like, NOT blaming us for "ignoring" RMS, because no one ever did that. Basically everything your post implies (that I think I am entitled to something, that I think everything should be easy, etc...) is not true. As I keep pointing out again and again, all I'm saying is that people don't use FOSS, but it's not because they don't value privacy, not because they don't value freedom, and for the love of biscuits not because of anything to do with RMS or ignoring him. The options are use an iPhone (not freedom), use an Android phone (not freedom), or use something like LineageOS. Using something like LineageOS is major commitment that most people don't have room in their lives for, because they have different priorities, which might also be very good. EDIT: Here's a metaphor, it'd be like if you asked your friend who owns a car with an ICE why he keeps ignoring Al Gore's warnings about the climate. It's like, Al Gore can be right, your friend can believe in Climate change, and he can still decide he needs an ICE car because he's barely making ends meet and is trying to support a family. You can claim that your friend has made bad choices, but there is no argument that he "ignored" Al Gore.