7 ms·

I recently fell into this rabbit hole. I bought a cheap automatic watch - a Seiko 5, for both practical reasons and otherwise (will work after an EMP attack/so

by desine 5y ago

I recently fell into this rabbit hole. I bought a cheap automatic watch - a Seiko 5, for both practical reasons and otherwise (will work after an EMP attack/solar event, but it's also just cool as hell mechanical engineering using 200 year old technology). Then I started putting watch repair youtube videos on in the background as I did chores or wrote code. Then I started actually watching the watch repair videos. Last week, I got a box of books, tools, and expendables. Today, when I get home, I'll have a box of broken pocket watches to tear into and probably irreparably mess up. When I was a kid, my grandfather and I tore down some old watches as a rainy afternoon activity one day. I was fascinated. It wasn't until I listened to the podcast Shit Town (S-Town) that I thought about horology as a hobby again. One interesting thing I learned, is that if you're looking for a career change, you can become a certified watch maker for free. Many of the schools are sponsored by the big name watch manufacturers, and tuition is free. It's a full time education, so you'll need enough financial runway to survive for a year or two, but you'll come out with no debt as a certified watch builder/repairperson.

ubermonkey 5y ago
That’s how it starts! For me, my mechanical watch obsession started when I inherited my father’s mid-70s Rolex. Back then, they weren’t as insanely out of reach as they’ve become; they were a very robust watch that would Just Work for a long, long time, and which looked nice. (Remember, this was only about 15 years after Sean Connery wore a Submariner in Dr No; Rolex was even LESS upmarket in the 60s, which was a time when very few watches were waterproof AT ALL.) Then the dot-com boom happened, and I had a little money, and I bought an Omega (which I’m actually wearing right now). It’s a late-90s Seamaster, like the one they put on Pierce Brosnan’s wrist for Goldeneye around the same time. (Incidentally, snooty jewelers do not think you are funny if you ask how to make the laser shoot out.) There are others, too, but the Omega is the nicest one I own. They are all EMP-proof, spring-driven marvels. Most have dates, but none show days or months. I do enjoy that there ARE mechanical movements with perpetual calendars, though, even if they do cost as much as a cheap house. About 5 years ago, I fell down the AppleWatch hole after buying one to use while running and biking, and finding it so useful that I wore it to the exclusion of all the other watches. I have a nicer Apple Watch now (titanium S6) that I wear MOST of the time, but several times a month I’ll pull one of the others out to wear. With this usage pattern, they’re all “oh, shiny!” to me, too, which is neat.
- Cd00d 5y ago
  I too fell off my mechanical watch obsession when I added a smartwatch to my life. My current Fitbit keeps better time, is as waterproof as my dive watches, and give me so much more. It makes me sad sometimes, as the mechanical marvel of watches is beautiful, but in the end, I had a Seiko SKX-007 that needed some maintenance, and I was quoted $600. It was a $200 watch and they were going to swab the movement. That watch has emotional value, but I can't keep it running at 3x the replacement cost. Maybe someday I'll find a way to wear another mechanical, and get all the health tracking I appreciate otherwise. Or maybe, technology finally replaced history for me. The funny thing is, I almost never would have considered a quartz watch lol.
  - LeifCarrotson 5y ago
    I think about this problem often. I think it's caused by economies of scale and is an escapee of Pandora's Box that we're not going to be able to put back. Instead, we need to think carefully about what we build and how we build it - educate consumers, regulate to price in obsolescence and recycling costs, and place greater value on long-term quality as a society - to prevent this from growing even worse. I build industrial automation equipment, so I'm in part to blame for the problem, however, I'm also in a position to advocate for easier repair processes and more sensible assembly stackups. It's simply a fact that the six figures in initial equipment capital divided by, hopefully, a similar number of unit sales, plus the few dozen seconds of operator hands-on time per unit, always going to produce an end product which costs less than hours of diagnosis and maintenance by a local, high-skill repairman. The math simply doesn't add permit any other arrangement, no matter how standardized your tooling is, how open your repair manual is, or how efficient your aftermarket parts ecosystem is. Repairing and maintaining something for more money than it cost to produce it puts those activities firmly in the realm of luxury goods. The better we get at producing useful things cheaply, the more we have to multiply the value of human labor, and the less it makes sense to repair cheap things with this expensive labor. One interesting option today is that you can get an electronic watch and get access to all the internals as well: https://open-smartwatch.github.io/ https://open-smartwatch.github.io/ However, its operation depends on electrons and bits instead of springs and escapements, and you can see those bits moving about in PlatformIO code instead of under a magnifier.
carabiner 5y ago
Is there any mechanical watch like the Seiko 5, but thinner and hopefully not much more expensive? I have a 5 and like it, it does feel a bit chunky at times.
- pushrax 5y ago
  The Seiko 5 movement is reasonably thin but often packaged into a large case. You might not have the thinnest Seiko 5.
- opmac 5y ago
  Seiko 5 is probably the cheapest, worthwhile mechanical watch. You can always get cheap Chinese and Russian watches as well but they will be of lesser quality and reliability than the Seiko. So to answer your question directly - probably not. But I would recommend checking out Orient watches. They have a decent set of mechanical watches of all different styles, not much more expensive than the classic Seiko 5, but definitely a step up in quality. https://www.orientwatchusa.com/ https://www.orientwatchusa.com/ Thickness is always going to be an issue with automatic watches. You can get thinner watches if they are manual wind since they don't have a rotor. Usually, the thinner they get, the more expensive they get though, so keep that in mind. You can get super thin manual wind watches but they will cost hundreds to thousands of dollars usually.
  - approxim8ion 5y ago
    This is funny because Seiko has notoriously terrible quality control, from misaligned bezels and/or chapter rings to dodgy bracelets across their entire lineup, even the more expensive ones. About Orient: they are pretty much poised to take the spot that Seiko has occupied for entry level mechanical watches, as Seiko themselves move further up market. I love the design of their Bambino and some of the OrientStar offerings but they have a few quirks I'm not fond of. I definitely recommend also trying a hand-wound watch because the slimness is wonderful and the winding has a charm to itself as well. I have RSI issues so the lightness and slimness is certainly a big plus, combined with the fact that most vintage or vintage-inspired manual wind watches have small dials and cases too.
Maxburn 5y ago
I seriously considered this as an exit strategy at one point too. Also S-Town was fantastic, highly recommended.
jioawpfj 5y ago
in the event an EMP knocks out all your electronics, is having a functioning watch something that really matters? also, where are you that an EMP is a realistic concern?
- bee_rider 5y ago
  If you are the only one with a working watch, is your time definitionally correct, off by a bit, or completely incorrect?
  - technothrasher 5y ago
    As long as we haven't lost the sun too, we can sort it all out again reasonably quickly.
    - bee_rider 5y ago
      Now you have introduced an additional variable (location) to the equation.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    Especially as mechanical watches drift a few minutes each day.
    - desine 5y ago
      It must be exceptionally bad mechanical watches you are used to
      - SilverRed 5y ago
        The drift is affected by movement right? I imagine sitting on a table they are much more accurate than swinging around on an arm all day.
        desine 5y ago
germinalphrase 5y ago
“ One interesting thing I learned, is that if you're looking for a career change, you can become a certified watch maker for free. Many of the schools are sponsored by the big name watch manufacturers, and tuition is free. It's a full time education, so you'll need enough financial runway to survive for a year or two, but you'll come out with no debt as a certified watch builder/repairperson.” Side note: you do have to relocate yourself/your family to the school’s location.
emodendroket 5y ago
To be fair automatic watches drift substantially over time.
- xcambar 5y ago
  Yes, they do, and that is a very poetic thing to consider. On one hand, you can marvel at how little they drift during a single power reserve. Could be seconds, which is barely noticeable in everyday life. On the other hand, some others (Seiko 5...) can drift minutes in a single reserve... And so what? In a day and age when we measure everything with maniac precision even during a random person's day, it's beautiful to lose some control and gain back some leeway with regards to time. I love that it is "about 22:00" rather than 22:03:37.
  - desine 5y ago
    >I love that it is "about 22:00" rather than 22:03:37. Agreed. I view myself as a pretty casual person, someone who's not overly concerned with the minutae of modern life. But with a digital watch, it's "12:47" and not "a quarter to one", which to me sounds infinitely cooler. With a slightly inaccurate mechanical movement, I fall into the latter manner of speaking, which is more what I want to be. Weird psychological preferences, but something that counts, to me.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I don't really find it beautiful being 15 minutes late because I haven't adjusted my watch in a while. This is really a big thing that put me off.
    - desine 5y ago
      In this modern age, you'll often come across synchronized digital clocks. Whether on your computer, phone, workplace, bank, etc. For me, it has become second nature to adjust my watch's time once every few days. I end up comparing my watch vs a clock a couple of times per day, and deciding the difference is great enough to fix, once a week or so (on a cheap, inaccurate Seiko 5, I would expect less frequency with a better timepiece)
JohnBooty 5y ago
I love mechanical watches too, but surely some cheap digital watches stashed in a shielded box would be the more effective post-EMP timekeeping device, right?
- desine 5y ago
  Shielding itself is not perfect. Probably enough for the simple circuitry of an analog quartz. But it's not guaranteed. It's a buffer that reduces a wave by a few to a few dozen dB. A EM pulse through even a properly grounded faraday cage will still replicate another smaller wave internally. Just let me collect my tiny mechanical toys, dammit, don't ask questions.
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    Oh, I didn't mean to rain on your parade. I love my diver's watches. In a similar vein I love having 200M of water resistance even though I'll never take them any deeper than the bottom of a small swimming pool, lol.
  - ymolodtsov 5y ago
    It's OK collecting them but "protection against an EMP" does sound a bit weird as a reason :)
agloeregrets 5y ago
I got a Seiko 5 as well, non-sports model. SNK809. I absolutely adore the little thing, it blows my mind just how little energy it needs to operate. Even when fully unwound, the slightest nudge gets it ticking at exactly the right speed. What an incredible work of engineering for so cheap.
domesmack 5y ago
I was in the hole about 3 years ago, I bought a book, some tools, and a couple of broken movements off of eBay with the thought that I’d just “ dive in and learn how they work “, but I stalled out. Without a set direction I found the space of things that could be wrong with my sample broken movement to be too large. Hell, I didn’t even know if all the components were there. It’s something I’d like to get into, hopefully with some hand holding. I’m curious what resources you’re using, and if there’s some kind of loose curriculum to ease the beginning efforts.
- desine 5y ago
  A bunch of youtube, a strong mechanical sense, and the book "watch Repair for Beginners", which was not noted in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28116525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28116525 So I'm likely down the same path as you, eventual "failure", if looking at it as a career choice. But I'm also ~a year behind you, starting a similar path with no handholidng and likely no profit. I watch this guy on youtube, occasionally, and his paid series has been mentioned here and elsewhere, as being worthwhile, but I have not paid for those videos (yet). https://www.watchfix.com/ https://www.watchfix.com/ (formerly known as http://watchrepairlessons.com/ http://watchrepairlessons.com/ )
technothrasher 5y ago
I fell sort of sideways, after tearing apart a bunch of old pocket watches and working my way in various directions, I've ended up in love with 18th and early 19th century tall case clocks. I've got about eight of them now, and spend much of my weekends at a little local clock museum sucking all the knowledge I can out of the curator there.
psychomugs 5y ago
Really interesting to hear that last bit about the certification. As a high school I joked around with the idea of being a watch maker despite not caring about watches at all but just being interested in the mechanics, but a few mechanical engineering degrees and a burgeoning photography hobby later I'd realistically consider learning camera repair.

by desine 5y ago

ubermonkey 5y ago

That’s how it starts! For me, my mechanical watch obsession started when I inherited my father’s mid-70s Rolex. Back then, they weren’t as insanely out of reach as they’ve become; they were a very robust watch that would Just Work for a long, long time, and which looked nice. (Remember, this was only about 15 years after Sean Connery wore a Submariner in Dr No; Rolex was even LESS upmarket in the 60s, which was a time when very few watches were waterproof AT ALL.) Then the dot-com boom happened, and I had a little money, and I bought an Omega (which I’m actually wearing right now). It’s a late-90s Seamaster, like the one they put on Pierce Brosnan’s wrist for Goldeneye around the same time. (Incidentally, snooty jewelers do not think you are funny if you ask how to make the laser shoot out.) There are others, too, but the Omega is the nicest one I own. They are all EMP-proof, spring-driven marvels. Most have dates, but none show days or months. I do enjoy that there ARE mechanical movements with perpetual calendars, though, even if they do cost as much as a cheap house. About 5 years ago, I fell down the AppleWatch hole after buying one to use while running and biking, and finding it so useful that I wore it to the exclusion of all the other watches. I have a nicer Apple Watch now (titanium S6) that I wear MOST of the time, but several times a month I’ll pull one of the others out to wear. With this usage pattern, they’re all “oh, shiny!” to me, too, which is neat.

Cd00d 5y ago
I too fell off my mechanical watch obsession when I added a smartwatch to my life. My current Fitbit keeps better time, is as waterproof as my dive watches, and give me so much more. It makes me sad sometimes, as the mechanical marvel of watches is beautiful, but in the end, I had a Seiko SKX-007 that needed some maintenance, and I was quoted $600. It was a $200 watch and they were going to swab the movement. That watch has emotional value, but I can't keep it running at 3x the replacement cost. Maybe someday I'll find a way to wear another mechanical, and get all the health tracking I appreciate otherwise. Or maybe, technology finally replaced history for me. The funny thing is, I almost never would have considered a quartz watch lol.
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  I think about this problem often. I think it's caused by economies of scale and is an escapee of Pandora's Box that we're not going to be able to put back. Instead, we need to think carefully about what we build and how we build it - educate consumers, regulate to price in obsolescence and recycling costs, and place greater value on long-term quality as a society - to prevent this from growing even worse. I build industrial automation equipment, so I'm in part to blame for the problem, however, I'm also in a position to advocate for easier repair processes and more sensible assembly stackups. It's simply a fact that the six figures in initial equipment capital divided by, hopefully, a similar number of unit sales, plus the few dozen seconds of operator hands-on time per unit, always going to produce an end product which costs less than hours of diagnosis and maintenance by a local, high-skill repairman. The math simply doesn't add permit any other arrangement, no matter how standardized your tooling is, how open your repair manual is, or how efficient your aftermarket parts ecosystem is. Repairing and maintaining something for more money than it cost to produce it puts those activities firmly in the realm of luxury goods. The better we get at producing useful things cheaply, the more we have to multiply the value of human labor, and the less it makes sense to repair cheap things with this expensive labor. One interesting option today is that you can get an electronic watch and get access to all the internals as well: https://open-smartwatch.github.io/ https://open-smartwatch.github.io/ However, its operation depends on electrons and bits instead of springs and escapements, and you can see those bits moving about in PlatformIO code instead of under a magnifier.

carabiner 5y ago

Is there any mechanical watch like the Seiko 5, but thinner and hopefully not much more expensive? I have a 5 and like it, it does feel a bit chunky at times.

pushrax 5y ago
The Seiko 5 movement is reasonably thin but often packaged into a large case. You might not have the thinnest Seiko 5.
opmac 5y ago
Seiko 5 is probably the cheapest, worthwhile mechanical watch. You can always get cheap Chinese and Russian watches as well but they will be of lesser quality and reliability than the Seiko. So to answer your question directly - probably not. But I would recommend checking out Orient watches. They have a decent set of mechanical watches of all different styles, not much more expensive than the classic Seiko 5, but definitely a step up in quality. https://www.orientwatchusa.com/ https://www.orientwatchusa.com/ Thickness is always going to be an issue with automatic watches. You can get thinner watches if they are manual wind since they don't have a rotor. Usually, the thinner they get, the more expensive they get though, so keep that in mind. You can get super thin manual wind watches but they will cost hundreds to thousands of dollars usually.
- approxim8ion 5y ago
  This is funny because Seiko has notoriously terrible quality control, from misaligned bezels and/or chapter rings to dodgy bracelets across their entire lineup, even the more expensive ones. About Orient: they are pretty much poised to take the spot that Seiko has occupied for entry level mechanical watches, as Seiko themselves move further up market. I love the design of their Bambino and some of the OrientStar offerings but they have a few quirks I'm not fond of. I definitely recommend also trying a hand-wound watch because the slimness is wonderful and the winding has a charm to itself as well. I have RSI issues so the lightness and slimness is certainly a big plus, combined with the fact that most vintage or vintage-inspired manual wind watches have small dials and cases too.

Maxburn 5y ago

I seriously considered this as an exit strategy at one point too. Also S-Town was fantastic, highly recommended.

jioawpfj 5y ago

in the event an EMP knocks out all your electronics, is having a functioning watch something that really matters? also, where are you that an EMP is a realistic concern?

bee_rider 5y ago
If you are the only one with a working watch, is your time definitionally correct, off by a bit, or completely incorrect?
- technothrasher 5y ago
  As long as we haven't lost the sun too, we can sort it all out again reasonably quickly.
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    Now you have introduced an additional variable (location) to the equation.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  Especially as mechanical watches drift a few minutes each day.
  - desine 5y ago
    It must be exceptionally bad mechanical watches you are used to
    - SilverRed 5y ago
      The drift is affected by movement right? I imagine sitting on a table they are much more accurate than swinging around on an arm all day.
      - desine 5y ago

germinalphrase 5y ago

“ One interesting thing I learned, is that if you're looking for a career change, you can become a certified watch maker for free. Many of the schools are sponsored by the big name watch manufacturers, and tuition is free. It's a full time education, so you'll need enough financial runway to survive for a year or two, but you'll come out with no debt as a certified watch builder/repairperson.” Side note: you do have to relocate yourself/your family to the school’s location.

emodendroket 5y ago

To be fair automatic watches drift substantially over time.

xcambar 5y ago
Yes, they do, and that is a very poetic thing to consider. On one hand, you can marvel at how little they drift during a single power reserve. Could be seconds, which is barely noticeable in everyday life. On the other hand, some others (Seiko 5...) can drift minutes in a single reserve... And so what? In a day and age when we measure everything with maniac precision even during a random person's day, it's beautiful to lose some control and gain back some leeway with regards to time. I love that it is "about 22:00" rather than 22:03:37.
- desine 5y ago
  >I love that it is "about 22:00" rather than 22:03:37. Agreed. I view myself as a pretty casual person, someone who's not overly concerned with the minutae of modern life. But with a digital watch, it's "12:47" and not "a quarter to one", which to me sounds infinitely cooler. With a slightly inaccurate mechanical movement, I fall into the latter manner of speaking, which is more what I want to be. Weird psychological preferences, but something that counts, to me.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  I don't really find it beautiful being 15 minutes late because I haven't adjusted my watch in a while. This is really a big thing that put me off.
  - desine 5y ago
    In this modern age, you'll often come across synchronized digital clocks. Whether on your computer, phone, workplace, bank, etc. For me, it has become second nature to adjust my watch's time once every few days. I end up comparing my watch vs a clock a couple of times per day, and deciding the difference is great enough to fix, once a week or so (on a cheap, inaccurate Seiko 5, I would expect less frequency with a better timepiece)

JohnBooty 5y ago

I love mechanical watches too, but surely some cheap digital watches stashed in a shielded box would be the more effective post-EMP timekeeping device, right?

desine 5y ago
Shielding itself is not perfect. Probably enough for the simple circuitry of an analog quartz. But it's not guaranteed. It's a buffer that reduces a wave by a few to a few dozen dB. A EM pulse through even a properly grounded faraday cage will still replicate another smaller wave internally. Just let me collect my tiny mechanical toys, dammit, don't ask questions.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Oh, I didn't mean to rain on your parade. I love my diver's watches. In a similar vein I love having 200M of water resistance even though I'll never take them any deeper than the bottom of a small swimming pool, lol.
- ymolodtsov 5y ago
  It's OK collecting them but "protection against an EMP" does sound a bit weird as a reason :)

agloeregrets 5y ago

I got a Seiko 5 as well, non-sports model. SNK809. I absolutely adore the little thing, it blows my mind just how little energy it needs to operate. Even when fully unwound, the slightest nudge gets it ticking at exactly the right speed. What an incredible work of engineering for so cheap.

domesmack 5y ago

I was in the hole about 3 years ago, I bought a book, some tools, and a couple of broken movements off of eBay with the thought that I’d just “ dive in and learn how they work “, but I stalled out. Without a set direction I found the space of things that could be wrong with my sample broken movement to be too large. Hell, I didn’t even know if all the components were there. It’s something I’d like to get into, hopefully with some hand holding. I’m curious what resources you’re using, and if there’s some kind of loose curriculum to ease the beginning efforts.

desine 5y ago
A bunch of youtube, a strong mechanical sense, and the book "watch Repair for Beginners", which was not noted in this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28116525 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28116525 So I'm likely down the same path as you, eventual "failure", if looking at it as a career choice. But I'm also ~a year behind you, starting a similar path with no handholidng and likely no profit. I watch this guy on youtube, occasionally, and his paid series has been mentioned here and elsewhere, as being worthwhile, but I have not paid for those videos (yet). https://www.watchfix.com/ https://www.watchfix.com/ (formerly known as http://watchrepairlessons.com/ http://watchrepairlessons.com/ )

technothrasher 5y ago

I fell sort of sideways, after tearing apart a bunch of old pocket watches and working my way in various directions, I've ended up in love with 18th and early 19th century tall case clocks. I've got about eight of them now, and spend much of my weekends at a little local clock museum sucking all the knowledge I can out of the curator there.

psychomugs 5y ago

Really interesting to hear that last bit about the certification. As a high school I joked around with the idea of being a watch maker despite not caring about watches at all but just being interested in the mechanics, but a few mechanical engineering degrees and a burgeoning photography hobby later I'd realistically consider learning camera repair.