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If they don't like it, they shouldn't have licensed their software under a free software license. This was an entirely foreseeable consequence. They only have t

by YPPH 5y ago

If they don't like it, they shouldn't have licensed their software under a free software license. This was an entirely foreseeable consequence. They only have themselves to blame. The AGPL generally fixes this perceived problem, but means that several large players (like Google) will never touch your code with a ten foot pole, let alone improve it. So, there's some difficult decision-making at the inception stage of a project - what do you value more? Sony forked FreeBSD and used it as a substantial component of their operating system for their PlayStation 5, a product which they will make money off (in the long run, at least). No changes are available to anyone. No one at FreeBSD is jumping up and down about it. Maybe because there's more to a software project than maximising profit.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Heaven forbid a FAANG doesn’t touch your code. Look at all the exposure you’ll miss out on. They might actually have to spend resources to write and maintain the code themselves, instead of open source maintainers begging for scraps [1]. The horror. The homebrew maintainer couldn’t even get hired at Google [2] if I recall, even though they’re big fans of using the tooling internally! [1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/tech-giants-chastened-by-heartbleed-finally-agree-to-fund-openssl/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/tech-... (OpenSSL Software Foundation President Steve Marquess wrote in a blog post last week that OpenSSL typically receives about $2,000 in donations a year and has just one employee who works full time on the open source code.) [2] https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 (Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but you can’t invert a binary tree on a whiteboard so fuck off.)
- jchw 5y ago
  Who said anyone was doing anything for exposure, either? I think open source is doomed if people fail to understand that when you release open source code under open source licenses, your users don’t owe you anything, and in return, you don’t owe your users anything either. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t even really care that much about whether or not people adhere to the licenses I use for the most part. Nobody is owed a sustainable ecosystem to profit off of open source. When things align to be mutually beneficial, that’s great. But by the nature of it, if you want to make money off of software, you should not release it as open source. It’s probably going to eventually wind up being a conflict of interest, wherein the “open” parts of a project eventually become less and less relevant in favor of closed parts. Open source doesn’t and shouldn’t guarantee a sustainable business model. The best you can hope for is that parties collaborate because they can benefit mutually from this collaboration, like with the Linux kernel.
  - lumost 5y ago
    An important distinction of Linux kernel development from most open source contributions is that the companies contributing code typically make their money off of selling hardware which must run or work with linux to be successful. These companies are all financially incentivized to keep the Linux collaboration successful.
    - indymike 5y ago
      Almost every open source package has a model where multiple contributors make money off something else. Usually that something else is software or hardware that is built with the open source package.
  - andi999 5y ago
    That sounds a bit like Thatcher 'there is no society' - society, I am not sure if open software can survive without permanence, trust and reliability (from the developer and customer side, not the code basis).
- kktkti9 5y ago
  Sort of how Elastic using the license that’s biting them; can’t really expect much else so long as “it’s a private company they can hire as they see fit” is the default political posture. Your problem transcends one whiner on Twitter; private entities can monopolize public agency across contexts and not be held accountable at all. Here you are in a VC echo chamber; good luck
Barrin92 5y ago
>If they don't like it, they shouldn't have licensed their software under a free software license They or anyone else are also free to relicense their project, there's nothing wrong with it at all and anything under the old license is still what it was before. It seems kinda strange to demand that someone operate under some license in perpetuity, there is no such rule. Licensing questions don't stop after the inception of a project.
- tybit 5y ago
  No ones demanding they don’t change, they’re just stating that as users they’ll react accordingly.
  - erezsh 5y ago
    You write "accordingly" as if it's obvious what's the correct course of action for a company that's in direct competition with a titan, and any other course of action must disappoint their users. What would you have them do? Would only their demise appease you?
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  The lessons that some contributors (myself included) will learn from this, is that it’s now a common bait and switch to build your product with open source contributions, and then relicense it when it’s time to monetise. I used to talk most of my employers into letting me bug fix open source projects that they were having issues with, now I just talk them into maintaining their own forks. The open source “freemium” business model is very clearly a scam at this point. I also personally can’t stand Elastic, because they charge enterprise rates for support, and then offer open source level support. You’ll come across a show stopping issue, and the support you’ll get is most commonly “why are even trying to do this?”, or “please refer to this issue that’s been stale since 2016”.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It is the return of shareware, as developers realised their parents wouldn't pay forever their housing needs.
cutemonster 5y ago
> This was an entirely foreseeable consequence I disagree. I think it was hard to know that many years ago (10+?) how things would turn out. Especially not "entirely foreseeable." There's a cognitive bias called "hindsight biasy", namely "the common tendency for people to perceive past events as having been more predictable than they actually were", https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias I agree with you about AGPL.
- AnonymousPlanet 5y ago
  > I disagree. I think it was hard to know that many years ago (10+?) how things would turn out. The GPL exists because of the problem of other people taking your code and hiding it in their products, placing you at a disadvantage. The AGPL exists to extend that protection regarding SAAS. According to Wikipedia, the AGPL is from 2007, and Elasticsearch started 4 years later. I disagree that you need hindsight not to be surprised by how Elasticsearch was used by e.g. Amazon.
  - necovek 5y ago
    GPL exists because nobody can (should?) stop users from modifying software they use (at the very least, on the machine level) and such modifying should neither be illegal nor hard (thus source code). The "sharing" bit is on top, and only comes out if you distribute your changes too. AGPL fixes the flaw where "users" don't really get a copy of the software they are using distributed to them in full (eg. only part of it with JS in the browser, but backend stuff is hidden). So the focus point of GPL is use of the software (thus users), not writing of it (developers). Developers embrace it because they are simultaneously users of the software written by others, and they are best positioned to make the most out of those liberties ("standing on the shoulders of giants").
- necovek 5y ago
  You are right: none of it was foreseeable, but rather, an expected outcome. In case of success, which Elastic has certainly achieved with ElasticSearch, it is fully expected that other companies will jump in on the bandwagon and try to profit off of it too! And as a company, you hope for success, or rather, that to play out, but just that you'd be the go-to for earning the most off the product you created. While not foreseeable, it is not unexpected that you might not be the one to profit most from your product, and you should plan to profit enough! Where it gets complicated is that nobody expects to earn orders of magnitude less from a product they created than others relying on it. What they did not foresee was that one of those companies would be The Cloud Provider, thus minimizing their value proposition since Amazon can throw significant resources at it, possibly even greater than Elastic themselves. One could argue that Amazon abused their monopolistic position in cloud providing to offer a bundled ElasticSearch experience that Elastic could never compete with. Even if they developed an alternative in-house product, it looks exactly the same as Microsoft bundling Internet Explorer with Windows back in the day. Even today, if you are willing to develop an open source or free software product, if you get successful enough, you are likely to be an exploitation target of a megacorp. Companies always have an option to relicense in-house written code, and any code submitted by signatories of an appropriate contributor license agreement (CLA). Basically, I agree it wasn't nice of Amazon, and that it wasn't foreseeable, but it ultimately wasn't unexpected either. To me, this is monopolistic behaviour that should be treated as such. This also raises another interesting question: if AGPL is an appropriate solution, why did Elastic not relicense under it today? (I am sure they answered this very question when they published their original license, so it's mostly rethorical)
bigiain 5y ago
On the plus side, the python repo is Apache2.0 licences, so fork away...
mschuster91 5y ago
> No one at FreeBSD is jumping up and down about it. Maybe because there's more to a software project than maximising profit. That is because xBSD have more than enough people to develop on it - hobbyists and companies alike. For smaller software with less of an established ecosystem, the supply of people willing to work on it for free is... not exactly much.

by YPPH 5y ago

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Heaven forbid a FAANG doesn’t touch your code. Look at all the exposure you’ll miss out on. They might actually have to spend resources to write and maintain the code themselves, instead of open source maintainers begging for scraps [1]. The horror. The homebrew maintainer couldn’t even get hired at Google [2] if I recall, even though they’re big fans of using the tooling internally! [1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/tech-giants-chastened-by-heartbleed-finally-agree-to-fund-openssl/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/tech-... (OpenSSL Software Foundation President Steve Marquess wrote in a blog post last week that OpenSSL typically receives about $2,000 in donations a year and has just one employee who works full time on the open source code.) [2] https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768 (Google: 90% of our engineers use the software you wrote (Homebrew), but you can’t invert a binary tree on a whiteboard so fuck off.)

jchw 5y ago
Who said anyone was doing anything for exposure, either? I think open source is doomed if people fail to understand that when you release open source code under open source licenses, your users don’t owe you anything, and in return, you don’t owe your users anything either. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t even really care that much about whether or not people adhere to the licenses I use for the most part. Nobody is owed a sustainable ecosystem to profit off of open source. When things align to be mutually beneficial, that’s great. But by the nature of it, if you want to make money off of software, you should not release it as open source. It’s probably going to eventually wind up being a conflict of interest, wherein the “open” parts of a project eventually become less and less relevant in favor of closed parts. Open source doesn’t and shouldn’t guarantee a sustainable business model. The best you can hope for is that parties collaborate because they can benefit mutually from this collaboration, like with the Linux kernel.
- lumost 5y ago
  An important distinction of Linux kernel development from most open source contributions is that the companies contributing code typically make their money off of selling hardware which must run or work with linux to be successful. These companies are all financially incentivized to keep the Linux collaboration successful.
  - indymike 5y ago
    Almost every open source package has a model where multiple contributors make money off something else. Usually that something else is software or hardware that is built with the open source package.
- andi999 5y ago
  That sounds a bit like Thatcher 'there is no society' - society, I am not sure if open software can survive without permanence, trust and reliability (from the developer and customer side, not the code basis).
kktkti9 5y ago
Sort of how Elastic using the license that’s biting them; can’t really expect much else so long as “it’s a private company they can hire as they see fit” is the default political posture. Your problem transcends one whiner on Twitter; private entities can monopolize public agency across contexts and not be held accountable at all. Here you are in a VC echo chamber; good luck

Barrin92 5y ago

>If they don't like it, they shouldn't have licensed their software under a free software license They or anyone else are also free to relicense their project, there's nothing wrong with it at all and anything under the old license is still what it was before. It seems kinda strange to demand that someone operate under some license in perpetuity, there is no such rule. Licensing questions don't stop after the inception of a project.

tybit 5y ago
No ones demanding they don’t change, they’re just stating that as users they’ll react accordingly.
- erezsh 5y ago
  You write "accordingly" as if it's obvious what's the correct course of action for a company that's in direct competition with a titan, and any other course of action must disappoint their users. What would you have them do? Would only their demise appease you?
AmericanChopper 5y ago
The lessons that some contributors (myself included) will learn from this, is that it’s now a common bait and switch to build your product with open source contributions, and then relicense it when it’s time to monetise. I used to talk most of my employers into letting me bug fix open source projects that they were having issues with, now I just talk them into maintaining their own forks. The open source “freemium” business model is very clearly a scam at this point. I also personally can’t stand Elastic, because they charge enterprise rates for support, and then offer open source level support. You’ll come across a show stopping issue, and the support you’ll get is most commonly “why are even trying to do this?”, or “please refer to this issue that’s been stale since 2016”.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  It is the return of shareware, as developers realised their parents wouldn't pay forever their housing needs.

cutemonster 5y ago

> This was an entirely foreseeable consequence I disagree. I think it was hard to know that many years ago (10+?) how things would turn out. Especially not "entirely foreseeable." There's a cognitive bias called "hindsight biasy", namely "the common tendency for people to perceive past events as having been more predictable than they actually were", https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias I agree with you about AGPL.

AnonymousPlanet 5y ago
> I disagree. I think it was hard to know that many years ago (10+?) how things would turn out. The GPL exists because of the problem of other people taking your code and hiding it in their products, placing you at a disadvantage. The AGPL exists to extend that protection regarding SAAS. According to Wikipedia, the AGPL is from 2007, and Elasticsearch started 4 years later. I disagree that you need hindsight not to be surprised by how Elasticsearch was used by e.g. Amazon.
- necovek 5y ago
  GPL exists because nobody can (should?) stop users from modifying software they use (at the very least, on the machine level) and such modifying should neither be illegal nor hard (thus source code). The "sharing" bit is on top, and only comes out if you distribute your changes too. AGPL fixes the flaw where "users" don't really get a copy of the software they are using distributed to them in full (eg. only part of it with JS in the browser, but backend stuff is hidden). So the focus point of GPL is use of the software (thus users), not writing of it (developers). Developers embrace it because they are simultaneously users of the software written by others, and they are best positioned to make the most out of those liberties ("standing on the shoulders of giants").
necovek 5y ago
You are right: none of it was foreseeable, but rather, an expected outcome. In case of success, which Elastic has certainly achieved with ElasticSearch, it is fully expected that other companies will jump in on the bandwagon and try to profit off of it too! And as a company, you hope for success, or rather, that to play out, but just that you'd be the go-to for earning the most off the product you created. While not foreseeable, it is not unexpected that you might not be the one to profit most from your product, and you should plan to profit enough! Where it gets complicated is that nobody expects to earn orders of magnitude less from a product they created than others relying on it. What they did not foresee was that one of those companies would be The Cloud Provider, thus minimizing their value proposition since Amazon can throw significant resources at it, possibly even greater than Elastic themselves. One could argue that Amazon abused their monopolistic position in cloud providing to offer a bundled ElasticSearch experience that Elastic could never compete with. Even if they developed an alternative in-house product, it looks exactly the same as Microsoft bundling Internet Explorer with Windows back in the day. Even today, if you are willing to develop an open source or free software product, if you get successful enough, you are likely to be an exploitation target of a megacorp. Companies always have an option to relicense in-house written code, and any code submitted by signatories of an appropriate contributor license agreement (CLA). Basically, I agree it wasn't nice of Amazon, and that it wasn't foreseeable, but it ultimately wasn't unexpected either. To me, this is monopolistic behaviour that should be treated as such. This also raises another interesting question: if AGPL is an appropriate solution, why did Elastic not relicense under it today? (I am sure they answered this very question when they published their original license, so it's mostly rethorical)

bigiain 5y ago

On the plus side, the python repo is Apache2.0 licences, so fork away...

mschuster91 5y ago

> No one at FreeBSD is jumping up and down about it. Maybe because there's more to a software project than maximising profit. That is because xBSD have more than enough people to develop on it - hobbyists and companies alike. For smaller software with less of an established ecosystem, the supply of people willing to work on it for free is... not exactly much.