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I'm not deriding the honest worry. Nobody can know with certainty anything about the future. I'm worrying about the paralyzing effects of a meme that says that

I'm not deriding the honest worry. Nobody can know with certainty anything about the future. I'm worrying about the paralyzing effects of a meme that says that since it's technically possible for an adverse affect to happen at an arbitrary point in the future, we cannot consider an option to curb the effects of a known problem we have right now. Often I'm accused of dismissing the possibility of adverse effects like if I knew with certainty that they can't happen. How could I? Nobody knows. That's not the point. The point is to make a guess and take balanced risks. We take risks all the time, about everything. What's so special about vaccines that causes such widespread reaction? Is it because people feel forced to take them? Is it something about the way they work that triggers such a reaction in people that often (anecdotally) don't care about things like effects of second hand smoke? (Genuine questions)

peteradio 5y ago
I will try to answer your questions from my point of view. It appears "off" that there is no nuance to this vaccination strategy. It seems especially odd to advocate for vaccinating children who stand to benefit very little personally. I had planned to get vaccinated but have been pretty concerned by the totalitarian vibes I've been getting lately. So I guess I've decided to let my civics slide to match. I will get the vaccine for my own personal benefit (if I deem it so) and I expect that is basically what's motivated everyone else anyway. So far I've not seen a clear benefit to me. According to this page https://19andme.covid19.mathematica.org/ https://19andme.covid19.mathematica.org/ these are my stats: "probability of catching COVID-19 through community transmission in a week is 0.027%" "If you get sick from COVID-19, the risk of hospitalization is 1.3% , the risk of requiring an ICU is 0.67% , and the risk of not surviving is 0.053%" If I tell the calculator I'm vaccinated then most those stats go down by 2 which is good but my threshold for action is on an absolute scale and staying unvaccinated does not trip the sensor. I choose to live life in rural America in some part to avoid such calamities. As an unvaccinated person I am less of a risk to other people person than a vaccinated person in da big city. To me personally the main issue has little to do with vaccines and more to do with frankly unnecessary (in some cases) overreach. I'm not saying overreach has happened already, but recent overtures are quite alarming to me.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  What would be your risk threshold (hypothetically speaking, if we could know it) that would make it for you a no-brainer to just take the vaccine assuming that you taking it would encourage other people who do fall in a higher risk bracket to also take it? Would 0.0001% risk be acceptable for you, hypothetically, as a civic duty?
  - peteradio 5y ago
    I'm not even assessing the risk of the vaccine in my judgement. I'm saying the apparent risk of the disease to myself and from me to others is not above the necessary level to stir an action from me. I'm probably going to get the vaccine if I see some sense of nuance to the guidance. Such as reasonable advice properly and publicly discussing the relative risk/rewards for our various demographics. The current attitude that I'm confronted with in my day-to-day is "wow what a dumb fuck hes hurting himself and everyone around him", for me the stats say otherwise.
    - ithkuil 5y ago
      I'm pulling a different angle into the equation: an altruistic angle. Are you a priori not interested in participating in an effort that would require an action from you (and possibly also a risk) unless you're directly beneficiary of such action?
      - peteradio 5y ago
        I'd assert that in such an experiment I would already be doing my part to reduce the impact of covid mainly due to where I live and minorly by my choices of how I live. The extra utility of that vaccine is effectively lost on me when that is figured in. When there is 0 utility then any altruistic action is nothing more than signaling. If I could be convinced there is serious utility for others by getting vaccinated then of course I would get it. Nobody seems willing to put real numbers to this, its simply "DO IT EVERYONE!" Lets say there are only 2 reasons to get the vaccine: 1) To protect yourself 2) To protect all those you care for. I'm not worried about 1 due to the apparently very low likelihood I will have some terrible personal covid outcome. I'm not worried about 2 due to the apparent very low likelihood of even catching covid.

peteradio 5y ago

I will try to answer your questions from my point of view. It appears "off" that there is no nuance to this vaccination strategy. It seems especially odd to advocate for vaccinating children who stand to benefit very little personally. I had planned to get vaccinated but have been pretty concerned by the totalitarian vibes I've been getting lately. So I guess I've decided to let my civics slide to match. I will get the vaccine for my own personal benefit (if I deem it so) and I expect that is basically what's motivated everyone else anyway. So far I've not seen a clear benefit to me. According to this page https://19andme.covid19.mathematica.org/ https://19andme.covid19.mathematica.org/ these are my stats: "probability of catching COVID-19 through community transmission in a week is 0.027%" "If you get sick from COVID-19, the risk of hospitalization is 1.3% , the risk of requiring an ICU is 0.67% , and the risk of not surviving is 0.053%" If I tell the calculator I'm vaccinated then most those stats go down by 2 which is good but my threshold for action is on an absolute scale and staying unvaccinated does not trip the sensor. I choose to live life in rural America in some part to avoid such calamities. As an unvaccinated person I am less of a risk to other people person than a vaccinated person in da big city. To me personally the main issue has little to do with vaccines and more to do with frankly unnecessary (in some cases) overreach. I'm not saying overreach has happened already, but recent overtures are quite alarming to me.

ithkuil 5y ago
What would be your risk threshold (hypothetically speaking, if we could know it) that would make it for you a no-brainer to just take the vaccine assuming that you taking it would encourage other people who do fall in a higher risk bracket to also take it? Would 0.0001% risk be acceptable for you, hypothetically, as a civic duty?
- peteradio 5y ago
  I'm not even assessing the risk of the vaccine in my judgement. I'm saying the apparent risk of the disease to myself and from me to others is not above the necessary level to stir an action from me. I'm probably going to get the vaccine if I see some sense of nuance to the guidance. Such as reasonable advice properly and publicly discussing the relative risk/rewards for our various demographics. The current attitude that I'm confronted with in my day-to-day is "wow what a dumb fuck hes hurting himself and everyone around him", for me the stats say otherwise.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    I'm pulling a different angle into the equation: an altruistic angle. Are you a priori not interested in participating in an effort that would require an action from you (and possibly also a risk) unless you're directly beneficiary of such action?
    - peteradio 5y ago
      I'd assert that in such an experiment I would already be doing my part to reduce the impact of covid mainly due to where I live and minorly by my choices of how I live. The extra utility of that vaccine is effectively lost on me when that is figured in. When there is 0 utility then any altruistic action is nothing more than signaling. If I could be convinced there is serious utility for others by getting vaccinated then of course I would get it. Nobody seems willing to put real numbers to this, its simply "DO IT EVERYONE!" Lets say there are only 2 reasons to get the vaccine: 1) To protect yourself 2) To protect all those you care for. I'm not worried about 1 due to the apparently very low likelihood I will have some terrible personal covid outcome. I'm not worried about 2 due to the apparent very low likelihood of even catching covid.