7 ms·

What Irony Is Not (2020)

54 points by elliekelly 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sonograph 5y ago
> Irony” is a term that everyone uses and seems to understand. It is also a concept that is notoriously difficult to define. I've always thought this. It's easier to explain irony using examples than to define it.
- johannes1234321 5y ago
  Unless you pick examples from the famous song by Alanis Morissette https://youtu.be/Jne9t8sHpUc https://youtu.be/Jne9t8sHpUc
- leephillips 5y ago
  For irony as a means of expression, the standard definition seems to be adequate: when the intended meaning is not the same as the literal meaning.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    That would apply to any kind of metaphor, and to most figures of speech.
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  > > Irony” is a term that everyone uses and seems to understand. It is also a concept that is notoriously difficult to define. In information terms, the "understand" in that sentence is a false positive. Q: Do you know what I mean? A: Yes. The response above is not a verification. To be valid as a verification, the response would have to contain a restatement of the proposition, ideally in different terms that have the same meaning. e.g. A: You are saying that when someone claims to understand something, they have to demonstrate that understanding by regurgitating the meaning they have in mind, so as to make their understanding transparent and verifiable.
Jtsummers 5y ago
An interesting read, I still often have trouble discerning what irony is supposed to be versus the colloquial use. So I'll pose this as a question to the community: About halfway down the article there was a link (for me) to "What Nihilism is Not" with a description "In order to preserve nihilism as a meaningful concept, it’s necessary to distinguish it from pessimism, cynicism, and apathy." Is it ironic that in an article about irony there is a link to an article on a philosophy premised on the meaninglessness of life that intends to preserve its meaningfulness?
- akiselev 5y ago
  Do you find it ironic? That's pretty much the only thing that matters because irony is colloquial. Every textbook definition of "irony" that I can find includes a human observer in judgement of the situation - the universe has no intrinsic concept of irony, only humans with expectations and a sense of humor do.
  - sidlls 5y ago
    This seems reductive to the point of uselessness. Technically every situation involving communication includes the judgement of a human observer: to extend your argument, we may as well assert there is no non-colloquial understanding of basically any word.
- chairhairair 5y ago
  An interesting question! Here is my impression after reading this article on irony: It is ironic to write an article with the aim of preserving the meaningfulness of the term nihilism. It is not ironic to embed a link to that article within an article about irony.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  Is it ironic that in an article about irony there is a link to an article on a philosophy premised on the meaninglessness of life that intends to preserve its meaningfulness? It's kind of funny, bordering on ironic I suppose. Irony is generally understood to involve an outcome that is contrary to expectations. It has been said that the textbook example of irony would be the bullet that nearly killed Ronald Reagan. The bullet initially missed him, but riccocheted off the bulletproof glass of his limo -- the thing meant to save him from bullets! -- and then struck him. In fact, it actually contributed greatly to his near-death: because the shooter never had a clear shot at Reagan, the initial assumption was that he had not been shot, and had simply hurt his ribs when being shoved into the car by his bodyguards following the shooting. Had he instead been shot directly, there would have been no such confusion or delay. Does an article about the meaningfulness of nihilism run contrary to expectations? If it was written by a nihilist, perhaps! If it was written by a non-nihilist, I'd say no -- it would not be unexpected for others to assign meaningfulness to a philosophy that has had some impact on the world, even if those who subscribe to the philosophy maintain that there is no meaning in things.
David2076 5y ago
This definition is referenced in the article and is outdated according to newer editions of Fowlers but still the one I go by http://paganpressbooks.com/jpl/FOWLER.HTM http://paganpressbooks.com/jpl/FOWLER.HTM
_frkl 5y ago
Nice article, thanks. Reminds me of this Ed Byrne bit, which I've totally forgotten about but always thought was quite funny: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfpB0kDLEts&feature=youtu.be https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfpB0kDLEts&feature=youtu.be
123pie123 5y ago
a good example of irony is the song: Ironic by Alanis Morissette whose lyrics aren't ironic (they're examples of unfortunate situations), thus having a song about irony - that isn't actually ironic (in its lyrics) thus making it the best ironic song ever
- lloyddobbler 5y ago
  With the possible exception of the lyrics "rain on your wedding day," which in some ways seems like a bad thing, but is supposedly good luck. Aside from that, the entire song is filled with non-ironic scenarios, yep. Agreed: the most unintentionally ironic song ever.
coldtea 5y ago
The article tortures its subject, while never really defining irony. If we go by the dictionary, we see that regular people are using irony quite well: (1) the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect. That's a hipster wearing a hillbilly stgan t-shirt ironically, or someone lauding Epstein as a paragon of virtue, and so on. This kind is well undestood and people usually don't argue over its semantics. (2) a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result. This is the kind of irony the article is preoccupied with. The key, I think, is the situation being "wryly amusing". I'd say that this kind of irony involves some kind of a "cosmic joke" (a kind of soft or heavier prank the universe plays on you/us). Not literally of course: it's just how it feels. This definition fits the dictionary definition (2) above, and the article cases, like the diabetic going for his meds and being run over by a sugar (or insulin, even better) truck. And, let's say that contrary to popular "de-bunking", finding a trove of spoons when you're just looking for a knife (as in Alanis' lyrics), qualifies. As does "winning the lottery and diying the next day" or "a death row pardon two minutes too late" (also lyrics from the same song). A lot of the semantic arguments against cases of (2) is mostly people expecting irony to always involve an element of (1), or to be necessarily much more than "wryly" amusing case of (2).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- andi999 5y ago
  I disagree. At least for me the 'wryly amusing' needs the events to be connected. Like death row pardon just too late doesn't do that for me. Death row pardon too late because you were on death row for killing Telefon operator 'Speedy' does it. Winning lottery and dying in your newly bought racing car, ok. Just dying, I do not see the irony. But it might just be me, and probably as with taste one cannot really discuss that.
  - OscarCunningham 5y ago
    I think an important factor in irony is that it's an apparent opposition between two aspects of a situation that do not in fact affect each other. So the diabetic being killed by the insulin truck is ironic, because the contents of the truck no not in fact affect the lethality of being hit by it. But the death row pardon coming in too late isn't ironic, because the pardon actually could have prevented the death. Whereas your example of 'Speedy' is ironic, because the nickname of the victim has no causal effect on the speed of the pardon. Examples where the two oposed aspects of the situation actually do affect each other aren't ironic, they're just an ordinary conflict
pengaru 5y ago
case in point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28106798 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28106798
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
b0rsuk 5y ago
I have a good example of irony. The right wing / conservative people in my country frequently call their political opponents "lemmings", to imply they're deluded, misinformed and mindlessly rushing towards their deaths. The mass suicide of lemmings is a myth. The most notable perpetuator is Disney, which in a 1958 documentary movie "White Wilderness" staged a "suicide" scene, complete with pushing lemmings off a cliff. There were more cases of involving Disney. So whenever right winged/conservative describe people with opposing views as "lemmings", they accuse them of being misinformed yet are proving themselves to be misinformed. To top it off, the "documentary" movie won an Academy Award, which is also itself ironic, because misinformation has been rewarded as educational.
wombatmobile 5y ago
A theory of why irony may be perceived differently by Americans vs British https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-americans-dont-get-irony-2015-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-americans-dont-get-ir...
- SPBS 5y ago
  > Thus they will often say things with implicit meanings that are contrary to their literal meanings — aka irony — that go right over American heads. An interesting counterpoint would be that although Japanese communication is extremely high-context, they don't grasp the concept of sarcasm at all. This leads to situations like this https://twitter.com/ceallachs_/status/1275296527783653381 https://twitter.com/ceallachs_/status/1275296527783653381
  - jsmith45 5y ago
    I question the claims that they don't understand sarcasm. It might be more that they have trouble understanding certain types of sarcasm. Japanese culture certainly recognizes the the inflated title mocking style of sarcasm, as well as the excessive politeness form of sarcasm (which is easier in Japanese). from what I've read, what Japanese doesn't really have as much of is sarcasm for levity ("this is fun" in response to some obviously not-fun situation), or sarcasm that is intended to be interpreted as praise (despite the literal meaning).
ggm 5y ago
Situational Irony can be unspoken. So, the man, portentiously explaining what mansplaining is, while the woman next to him sits quietly. Or, the criminal, railling at his car being keyed, while he was breaking into a house.

54 points by elliekelly 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

> Irony” is a term that everyone uses and seems to understand. It is also a concept that is notoriously difficult to define. I've always thought this. It's easier to explain irony using examples than to define it.

johannes1234321 5y ago
Unless you pick examples from the famous song by Alanis Morissette https://youtu.be/Jne9t8sHpUc https://youtu.be/Jne9t8sHpUc
leephillips 5y ago
For irony as a means of expression, the standard definition seems to be adequate: when the intended meaning is not the same as the literal meaning.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  That would apply to any kind of metaphor, and to most figures of speech.
wombatmobile 5y ago
> > Irony” is a term that everyone uses and seems to understand. It is also a concept that is notoriously difficult to define. In information terms, the "understand" in that sentence is a false positive. Q: Do you know what I mean? A: Yes. The response above is not a verification. To be valid as a verification, the response would have to contain a restatement of the proposition, ideally in different terms that have the same meaning. e.g. A: You are saying that when someone claims to understand something, they have to demonstrate that understanding by regurgitating the meaning they have in mind, so as to make their understanding transparent and verifiable.

Jtsummers 5y ago

An interesting read, I still often have trouble discerning what irony is supposed to be versus the colloquial use. So I'll pose this as a question to the community: About halfway down the article there was a link (for me) to "What Nihilism is Not" with a description "In order to preserve nihilism as a meaningful concept, it’s necessary to distinguish it from pessimism, cynicism, and apathy." Is it ironic that in an article about irony there is a link to an article on a philosophy premised on the meaninglessness of life that intends to preserve its meaningfulness?

akiselev 5y ago
Do you find it ironic? That's pretty much the only thing that matters because irony is colloquial. Every textbook definition of "irony" that I can find includes a human observer in judgement of the situation - the universe has no intrinsic concept of irony, only humans with expectations and a sense of humor do.
- sidlls 5y ago
  This seems reductive to the point of uselessness. Technically every situation involving communication includes the judgement of a human observer: to extend your argument, we may as well assert there is no non-colloquial understanding of basically any word.
chairhairair 5y ago
An interesting question! Here is my impression after reading this article on irony: It is ironic to write an article with the aim of preserving the meaningfulness of the term nihilism. It is not ironic to embed a link to that article within an article about irony.
JohnBooty 5y ago
Is it ironic that in an article about irony there is a link to an article on a philosophy premised on the meaninglessness of life that intends to preserve its meaningfulness? It's kind of funny, bordering on ironic I suppose. Irony is generally understood to involve an outcome that is contrary to expectations. It has been said that the textbook example of irony would be the bullet that nearly killed Ronald Reagan. The bullet initially missed him, but riccocheted off the bulletproof glass of his limo -- the thing meant to save him from bullets! -- and then struck him. In fact, it actually contributed greatly to his near-death: because the shooter never had a clear shot at Reagan, the initial assumption was that he had not been shot, and had simply hurt his ribs when being shoved into the car by his bodyguards following the shooting. Had he instead been shot directly, there would have been no such confusion or delay. Does an article about the meaningfulness of nihilism run contrary to expectations? If it was written by a nihilist, perhaps! If it was written by a non-nihilist, I'd say no -- it would not be unexpected for others to assign meaningfulness to a philosophy that has had some impact on the world, even if those who subscribe to the philosophy maintain that there is no meaning in things.

David2076 5y ago

This definition is referenced in the article and is outdated according to newer editions of Fowlers but still the one I go by http://paganpressbooks.com/jpl/FOWLER.HTM http://paganpressbooks.com/jpl/FOWLER.HTM

_frkl 5y ago

Nice article, thanks. Reminds me of this Ed Byrne bit, which I've totally forgotten about but always thought was quite funny: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfpB0kDLEts&feature=youtu.be https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfpB0kDLEts&feature=youtu.be

123pie123 5y ago

a good example of irony is the song: Ironic by Alanis Morissette whose lyrics aren't ironic (they're examples of unfortunate situations), thus having a song about irony - that isn't actually ironic (in its lyrics) thus making it the best ironic song ever

lloyddobbler 5y ago
With the possible exception of the lyrics "rain on your wedding day," which in some ways seems like a bad thing, but is supposedly good luck. Aside from that, the entire song is filled with non-ironic scenarios, yep. Agreed: the most unintentionally ironic song ever.

coldtea 5y ago

The article tortures its subject, while never really defining irony. If we go by the dictionary, we see that regular people are using irony quite well: (1) the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect. That's a hipster wearing a hillbilly stgan t-shirt ironically, or someone lauding Epstein as a paragon of virtue, and so on. This kind is well undestood and people usually don't argue over its semantics. (2) a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result. This is the kind of irony the article is preoccupied with. The key, I think, is the situation being "wryly amusing". I'd say that this kind of irony involves some kind of a "cosmic joke" (a kind of soft or heavier prank the universe plays on you/us). Not literally of course: it's just how it feels. This definition fits the dictionary definition (2) above, and the article cases, like the diabetic going for his meds and being run over by a sugar (or insulin, even better) truck. And, let's say that contrary to popular "de-bunking", finding a trove of spoons when you're just looking for a knife (as in Alanis' lyrics), qualifies. As does "winning the lottery and diying the next day" or "a death row pardon two minutes too late" (also lyrics from the same song). A lot of the semantic arguments against cases of (2) is mostly people expecting irony to always involve an element of (1), or to be necessarily much more than "wryly" amusing case of (2).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
andi999 5y ago
I disagree. At least for me the 'wryly amusing' needs the events to be connected. Like death row pardon just too late doesn't do that for me. Death row pardon too late because you were on death row for killing Telefon operator 'Speedy' does it. Winning lottery and dying in your newly bought racing car, ok. Just dying, I do not see the irony. But it might just be me, and probably as with taste one cannot really discuss that.
- OscarCunningham 5y ago
  I think an important factor in irony is that it's an apparent opposition between two aspects of a situation that do not in fact affect each other. So the diabetic being killed by the insulin truck is ironic, because the contents of the truck no not in fact affect the lethality of being hit by it. But the death row pardon coming in too late isn't ironic, because the pardon actually could have prevented the death. Whereas your example of 'Speedy' is ironic, because the nickname of the victim has no causal effect on the speed of the pardon. Examples where the two oposed aspects of the situation actually do affect each other aren't ironic, they're just an ordinary conflict

pengaru 5y ago

case in point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28106798 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28106798

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

b0rsuk 5y ago

I have a good example of irony. The right wing / conservative people in my country frequently call their political opponents "lemmings", to imply they're deluded, misinformed and mindlessly rushing towards their deaths. The mass suicide of lemmings is a myth. The most notable perpetuator is Disney, which in a 1958 documentary movie "White Wilderness" staged a "suicide" scene, complete with pushing lemmings off a cliff. There were more cases of involving Disney. So whenever right winged/conservative describe people with opposing views as "lemmings", they accuse them of being misinformed yet are proving themselves to be misinformed. To top it off, the "documentary" movie won an Academy Award, which is also itself ironic, because misinformation has been rewarded as educational.

wombatmobile 5y ago

A theory of why irony may be perceived differently by Americans vs British https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-americans-dont-get-irony-2015-1 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-americans-dont-get-ir...

SPBS 5y ago
> Thus they will often say things with implicit meanings that are contrary to their literal meanings — aka irony — that go right over American heads. An interesting counterpoint would be that although Japanese communication is extremely high-context, they don't grasp the concept of sarcasm at all. This leads to situations like this https://twitter.com/ceallachs_/status/1275296527783653381 https://twitter.com/ceallachs_/status/1275296527783653381
- jsmith45 5y ago
  I question the claims that they don't understand sarcasm. It might be more that they have trouble understanding certain types of sarcasm. Japanese culture certainly recognizes the the inflated title mocking style of sarcasm, as well as the excessive politeness form of sarcasm (which is easier in Japanese). from what I've read, what Japanese doesn't really have as much of is sarcasm for levity ("this is fun" in response to some obviously not-fun situation), or sarcasm that is intended to be interpreted as praise (despite the literal meaning).

ggm 5y ago

Situational Irony can be unspoken. So, the man, portentiously explaining what mansplaining is, while the woman next to him sits quietly. Or, the criminal, railling at his car being keyed, while he was breaking into a house.