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I am with you. But I think I know what it is, you touched on it and almost had it. It was indeed peace, we almost had it, world peace - feeling utopian and all

I am with you. But I think I know what it is, you touched on it and almost had it. It was indeed peace, we almost had it, world peace - feeling utopian and all loving in the 90s. Then came 9/11. It’s the single point in history where just about everything to do with American society can be defined to be before and after. Doesn’t matter what you think about the event and it’s authenticity as described, the fact of the matter is that America as a country has been locked in this sort of country wide PTSD since and have changed completely. Along with it went peace, calmness, secularism, egalitarianism and altruism. We’re constantly the hunted now, the ones who need security, everything needs to be dumbed down, so called common sense rules and it better be mine common sense and not yours. And on and on it goes. We’re operating like a demented, schizophrenic who has woken up from a nightmare every day of their lives and have lost the fact they are living in their head instead of in the real world.

jeofken 5y ago
> Doesn’t matter what you think about the event and it’s authenticity as described Interesting small mention. Is it common in America to disbelieve in the mainstream history of 9/11? I’m just getting glimpses from the new world via the internet and have no ear to the ground there
- danielschonfeld 5y ago
  The answer to that is a personal one and I suggest for anybody on either side of any argument to recall Nietzsche’s saying - Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
- tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
  I'm not sure what the original commenter was talking about, but no, it's not. There is vast agreement in the US about what happened.
  - danielschonfeld 5y ago
    Not as vast as you think [1]. Also as of late it appears the victims don’t want their president there in their 20th reunion for similar reasons. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_conspiracy_theories https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_con...
keewee7 5y ago
>Then came 9/11 The rising pessimism and negativity since 2008/09 is a global phenomenon. I think it's wrong and very US-centric to attribute that to 9/11. The 2008 financial crisis and the rise of social media has probably more to do with the rise of millennial pessimism and negativity.
- panta 5y ago
  We had worse crises before that didn’t change societies so deeply. With 9/11 we started renouncing to the concept of freedom that we gained with illuminism and the French revolution. Then we started putting “safety” before everything else.
  - fakesheriff 5y ago
    > Then we started putting “safety” before everything else. One caveat. It's safety first, unless they decide to go to war to ensure continued access to cheap commodities (Iraq) or to play weird sociopath power games (Vietnam). It's going to be kind of rich when they ask people from podunk towns in "flyover country" to go fight their next war, after years of ridiculing them and decimating their local economies.
  - cygx 5y ago
    We had worse crises before that didn’t change societies so deeply During the Red Scare, loyalty review boards were instituted and civil servants insufficiently 'American' were sacked in the thousands.
    - mbreese 5y ago
      But there isn't a singular date to associate with the Red Scare... that's more a nebulous period of time. It was also a gradual process. The West was already preparing for the oncoming cold-war with the USSR before the end of WW2. The loyalty boards and Hollywood blacklisting were definitely a change is society, but it was so slow moving that I wouldn't compare it to a shift like 9/11. The world wasn't really different before and after something like the hearings of the House Un-American Activities Committee, even though that is what would be a likely event you'd associate with the Red Scare. When I think of 20th century cultural events that had an shift in society, I think more of the Cuban missile crisis, the Challenger disaster, the fall of the Berlin wall, etc... shorter events (not necessarily instantaneous, but well defined times) where you could define shifts in culture to before/after.
damagednoob 5y ago
> It was indeed peace, we almost had it, world peace - feeling utopian and all loving in the 90s. Think you might need to qualify that. The mid-90s saw the Bosnian and Rwandan genocides.
- danielschonfeld 5y ago
  It won’t be the first time in history, Americans and with them the “western” world turned a blind eye to who’s backs their hedonistic party was carried over. If you look at what was life like. What people cared about. What songs sang about. What households looked like. War was as far a concept from the average American. Sure we had the gulf war early 90s. We had Bosnia during Clinton years. But most Americans were more concerned with becoming stock traders from home, saving willy and the earth and how Clinton’s cigars were used. Americans bombers dropping bombs by the ton to the backdrop of western advancement has almost become an expectation in our campaign of spreading our brand of democracy and its freedoms or else.
  - monoideism 5y ago
    > We had Bosnia during Clinton years. Oppose them or support them, it was literally American bombing campaigns that stopped the Bosnian genocide and the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.
    - danielschonfeld 5y ago
      Admittedly the Yugoslav wars are not my strong suit in history, but if protecting genocide is all that is American, it makes you wonder where have we been the past decade when it came to Yemen. Same with the Uyghurs in China. Same with the civil war in Syria. I can list a few more... Feels like there was something more that led America to Bosnia, and it wasn't just our benevolence and saving the world from itself.
      - monoideism 5y ago
        > Feels like there was something more that led America to Bosnia, and it wasn't just our benevolence and saving the world from itself. There was a lot of pressure to "do something" in the Balkans, and the military wasn't averse to showing off its goods, so something was done. Imagine the media pressure with Yemen x1000. That was Bosnia and Kosovo (probably mostly because it was in Europe). Also, US military has intervened militarily in Syria, many times, and even with troops on the ground. Did you miss it? The Uyghurs are a poor analogy, because despite the intense oppression they're under, they're not being mass-murdered. And a humanitarian intervention in China due to Uyghur situation is just not in the cards, because realism. So sure, Bosnia+Kosovo interventions weren't just "benevolence". It was a convergance of factors (power dynamics, US President open to idea, media+public pressure, limiting intervention to air campaign, etc). But it wasn't an oil pipeline or some ridiculous conspiracy, either, like I sometimes hear.
goodoldneon 5y ago
9/11 is an inflection point in modern day America, but there have been other equal/greater inflection points. Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW2… lots of war
- nmg 5y ago
  Absolutely, and wars waged without declaration that were equally traumatic. Within the lifetime of the Internet, I think 9/11 is the major inflection
u801e 5y ago
> America as a country has been locked in this sort of country wide PTSD since and have changed completely. Population wise, that was the case for a number of years after 9/11. In terms of government policy, it's still the case. But in terms of the former, it's fading away as more time passes. People who were born in 2001 are or will turn 20 this year. Just like events like the attack on pearl harbor and the Cuban missle crises, 9/11 will also become an event that's just known by reading history rather than a first hand experience.
- dTal 5y ago
  They won't remember the transition or really realize it happened, but the cultural echoes last a hell of a lot longer than direct memory of the event. Hell, the reverberations of the civil war still echo today.
krageon 5y ago
> Then came 9/11 > American Yes, except the world is large and frankly in most parts of the world 9/11 doesn't factor very large in memory. As such, I doubt it was the single most important factor in changing this feeling of world peace which again, definitely didn't exist outside of the US. All you need to think about to see that is look at why 9/11 happened and think of all the murdered people those folks must have seen to get that angry.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > and think of all the murdered people those folks must have seen to get that angry. Come now don't be naïve: those same folk get just as rabidly homicidal over a silly little cartoon. Some societies are just not compatible with legal systems that a) limits the use of force to the government alone, b) place the rules and rights of men above religions. Never the two shall meet.
tarsinge 5y ago
Or alternatively, then came Internet for the masses. Before that a lid was kept on a huge part of the population, the dream of raw global information sharing turned out to be a nightmare our societies/species is no ready for.
- xtracto 5y ago
  It's the "Eternal September" or "September that Never Ended" for the internet in general. With mass use came mass marketing and a switch from authentic information dissemination Internet to pure and absolute profiteering of everything you see on the internet. Do a random search in Google (DDG, or Bing) of ANY term at all, and you will see that the full first page links to pages that wrote whatever content for a profit (either by selling ads, or by a paywall, etc). Long lost are sites like Xoom, Geocities or similar where people wrote about their knowledge just for the sake of it. Long gone are the "web rings" that took you into cliques of people wanting to share knowledge of some specific subject. Nowadays the closest you can get to that sort of information is in forums like this or reddit (and this last is questionable). That's why adding "site:reddit.com" when searching for some opinion is becoming more useful compared to pure serach engine results.
  - janto 5y ago
    Wikipedia and community wikis also centralized (drained?) a lot of knowledge that might have otherwise existed on separately hosted sites linked through webrings.

jeofken 5y ago

> Doesn’t matter what you think about the event and it’s authenticity as described Interesting small mention. Is it common in America to disbelieve in the mainstream history of 9/11? I’m just getting glimpses from the new world via the internet and have no ear to the ground there

danielschonfeld 5y ago
The answer to that is a personal one and I suggest for anybody on either side of any argument to recall Nietzsche’s saying - Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
I'm not sure what the original commenter was talking about, but no, it's not. There is vast agreement in the US about what happened.
- danielschonfeld 5y ago
  Not as vast as you think [1]. Also as of late it appears the victims don’t want their president there in their 20th reunion for similar reasons. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_conspiracy_theories https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_con...

keewee7 5y ago

>Then came 9/11 The rising pessimism and negativity since 2008/09 is a global phenomenon. I think it's wrong and very US-centric to attribute that to 9/11. The 2008 financial crisis and the rise of social media has probably more to do with the rise of millennial pessimism and negativity.

panta 5y ago
We had worse crises before that didn’t change societies so deeply. With 9/11 we started renouncing to the concept of freedom that we gained with illuminism and the French revolution. Then we started putting “safety” before everything else.
- fakesheriff 5y ago
  > Then we started putting “safety” before everything else. One caveat. It's safety first, unless they decide to go to war to ensure continued access to cheap commodities (Iraq) or to play weird sociopath power games (Vietnam). It's going to be kind of rich when they ask people from podunk towns in "flyover country" to go fight their next war, after years of ridiculing them and decimating their local economies.
- cygx 5y ago
  We had worse crises before that didn’t change societies so deeply During the Red Scare, loyalty review boards were instituted and civil servants insufficiently 'American' were sacked in the thousands.
  - mbreese 5y ago
    But there isn't a singular date to associate with the Red Scare... that's more a nebulous period of time. It was also a gradual process. The West was already preparing for the oncoming cold-war with the USSR before the end of WW2. The loyalty boards and Hollywood blacklisting were definitely a change is society, but it was so slow moving that I wouldn't compare it to a shift like 9/11. The world wasn't really different before and after something like the hearings of the House Un-American Activities Committee, even though that is what would be a likely event you'd associate with the Red Scare. When I think of 20th century cultural events that had an shift in society, I think more of the Cuban missile crisis, the Challenger disaster, the fall of the Berlin wall, etc... shorter events (not necessarily instantaneous, but well defined times) where you could define shifts in culture to before/after.

damagednoob 5y ago

> It was indeed peace, we almost had it, world peace - feeling utopian and all loving in the 90s. Think you might need to qualify that. The mid-90s saw the Bosnian and Rwandan genocides.

danielschonfeld 5y ago
It won’t be the first time in history, Americans and with them the “western” world turned a blind eye to who’s backs their hedonistic party was carried over. If you look at what was life like. What people cared about. What songs sang about. What households looked like. War was as far a concept from the average American. Sure we had the gulf war early 90s. We had Bosnia during Clinton years. But most Americans were more concerned with becoming stock traders from home, saving willy and the earth and how Clinton’s cigars were used. Americans bombers dropping bombs by the ton to the backdrop of western advancement has almost become an expectation in our campaign of spreading our brand of democracy and its freedoms or else.
- monoideism 5y ago
  > We had Bosnia during Clinton years. Oppose them or support them, it was literally American bombing campaigns that stopped the Bosnian genocide and the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.
  - danielschonfeld 5y ago
    Admittedly the Yugoslav wars are not my strong suit in history, but if protecting genocide is all that is American, it makes you wonder where have we been the past decade when it came to Yemen. Same with the Uyghurs in China. Same with the civil war in Syria. I can list a few more... Feels like there was something more that led America to Bosnia, and it wasn't just our benevolence and saving the world from itself.
    - monoideism 5y ago
      > Feels like there was something more that led America to Bosnia, and it wasn't just our benevolence and saving the world from itself. There was a lot of pressure to "do something" in the Balkans, and the military wasn't averse to showing off its goods, so something was done. Imagine the media pressure with Yemen x1000. That was Bosnia and Kosovo (probably mostly because it was in Europe). Also, US military has intervened militarily in Syria, many times, and even with troops on the ground. Did you miss it? The Uyghurs are a poor analogy, because despite the intense oppression they're under, they're not being mass-murdered. And a humanitarian intervention in China due to Uyghur situation is just not in the cards, because realism. So sure, Bosnia+Kosovo interventions weren't just "benevolence". It was a convergance of factors (power dynamics, US President open to idea, media+public pressure, limiting intervention to air campaign, etc). But it wasn't an oil pipeline or some ridiculous conspiracy, either, like I sometimes hear.

goodoldneon 5y ago

9/11 is an inflection point in modern day America, but there have been other equal/greater inflection points. Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW2… lots of war

nmg 5y ago
Absolutely, and wars waged without declaration that were equally traumatic. Within the lifetime of the Internet, I think 9/11 is the major inflection

u801e 5y ago

> America as a country has been locked in this sort of country wide PTSD since and have changed completely. Population wise, that was the case for a number of years after 9/11. In terms of government policy, it's still the case. But in terms of the former, it's fading away as more time passes. People who were born in 2001 are or will turn 20 this year. Just like events like the attack on pearl harbor and the Cuban missle crises, 9/11 will also become an event that's just known by reading history rather than a first hand experience.

dTal 5y ago
They won't remember the transition or really realize it happened, but the cultural echoes last a hell of a lot longer than direct memory of the event. Hell, the reverberations of the civil war still echo today.

krageon 5y ago

> Then came 9/11 > American Yes, except the world is large and frankly in most parts of the world 9/11 doesn't factor very large in memory. As such, I doubt it was the single most important factor in changing this feeling of world peace which again, definitely didn't exist outside of the US. All you need to think about to see that is look at why 9/11 happened and think of all the murdered people those folks must have seen to get that angry.

throwaway210222 5y ago
> and think of all the murdered people those folks must have seen to get that angry. Come now don't be naïve: those same folk get just as rabidly homicidal over a silly little cartoon. Some societies are just not compatible with legal systems that a) limits the use of force to the government alone, b) place the rules and rights of men above religions. Never the two shall meet.

tarsinge 5y ago

Or alternatively, then came Internet for the masses. Before that a lid was kept on a huge part of the population, the dream of raw global information sharing turned out to be a nightmare our societies/species is no ready for.

xtracto 5y ago
It's the "Eternal September" or "September that Never Ended" for the internet in general. With mass use came mass marketing and a switch from authentic information dissemination Internet to pure and absolute profiteering of everything you see on the internet. Do a random search in Google (DDG, or Bing) of ANY term at all, and you will see that the full first page links to pages that wrote whatever content for a profit (either by selling ads, or by a paywall, etc). Long lost are sites like Xoom, Geocities or similar where people wrote about their knowledge just for the sake of it. Long gone are the "web rings" that took you into cliques of people wanting to share knowledge of some specific subject. Nowadays the closest you can get to that sort of information is in forums like this or reddit (and this last is questionable). That's why adding "site:reddit.com" when searching for some opinion is becoming more useful compared to pure serach engine results.
- janto 5y ago
  Wikipedia and community wikis also centralized (drained?) a lot of knowledge that might have otherwise existed on separately hosted sites linked through webrings.