6 ms·

Sort of related: I'm still confused by GUIs and files, and I've been using computers for ~30 years and programmed professionally for ~15, using Windows and Linu

by chubot 5y ago

Sort of related: I'm still confused by GUIs and files, and I've been using computers for ~30 years and programmed professionally for ~15, using Windows and Linux. I've mostly gotten over all the confusion in Windows and Linux, but OS X still confuses me. Specifically how to install an application. It seems like it's different with each app. For example, I downloaded a .dmg file for the Transmission BitTorrent client. And I double clicked it. There was another icon inside, and I double clicked that. Now I'm running the Transmission client and I can use it. But it's not installed? I can't click on a .torrent file and have it launch the client. I try to drag the whole thing into Applications? That makes a big mess. It doesn't install it. I have to open up finder and manually remove the files. Then I realize I have to click the .dmg and then drag the thing inside into Applications. To me everything in OS X looks like an "icon" and there is some tenous relationship to directories/folders, and "Applications" is some special pseudo-folder. I'm still confused, and not surprised at all that end users are confused. And this is on the OS that's supposedly the most user-friendly.

sitharus 5y ago
This is mostly a historical thing. There’s no real reason to use .dmg these days - historically it was the only Apple-supported way of compressing macOS files and keeping their resource forks intact. These days .zip is fine. That said there isn’t an ‘install’ as such on macOS. Applications isn’t a special folder, it’s a regular folder like anything else. Putting an application bundle on your local disk anywhere is sufficient to get file type mappings to work. The downside of course is there’s no corresponding uninstall that removes anything extra the app dropped in to ~/Library.
- unnah 5y ago
  So if installation means simply moving an application to your local disk, or specifically to the Applications folder... then how does stuff end up in ~/Library instead?
  - einherjae 5y ago
    Preferences, caches, etc. general by-products.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    The app puts it there when it runs.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  There totally is an install. Tons of apps use a Windows-style install process.
  - sitharus 5y ago
    For applications there is no Windows style install process where things like the registry have to be updated, the os manages these associations itself. For things like kernel extensions yes there’s an installer, and some more invasive apps do that as well. But for a plain app there’s no _need_ for an installer. That doesn’t prohibit them of course.
- pjc50 5y ago
  At work we make a .pkg inside a .dmg, and I'm told this is because that's the only way to have an icon? > Putting an application bundle on your local disk anywhere is sufficient to get file type mappings to work. How does this work "under the hood"? "Bundles" and "packages" as a general concept are interesting. Lots of games from DOOM upwards use "packfiles", which are effectively lots of files in a never-unpacked container. You can't see them in the filesystem, because the intent was to avoid incurring filesystem overhead for them. MacOS bundles appear to have gone in the opposite direction: the structure is brittle (if you move anything it breaks signing), but it's unpacked into the filesystem.
  - aasasd 5y ago
    > that's the only way to have an icon Icon for what? .apps inside dmgs have icons just fine, like anywhere else (locally). Moreover, people add background images via some special metadata files, to have those arrows telling you to drop the .app onto the symlink to the Applications folder.
  - sitharus 5y ago
    A .app inside a zip is fine. Under the hood, Apple used to have a tech note on it but I can’t find it right now. Essentially the OS uses file system event notifications to watch for bundles being added or removed. It maintains a database of the mappings declared in the plist for fast lookups.
perryizgr8 5y ago
Macos file explorer is the most annoying and unintuitive software I use regularly. 1. Pressing the delete key does not delete the selected file. 2. Enter key renames the file??? 3. Space key opens up some sort of fake viewer that doesn't always work. 4. There is no good way to browse a folder of pictures. 5. No way to navigate to home folder. 6. No way to see full filenames for long names. 7. Bin does not work consistently. I created a shortcut to it in the side panel, but that cannot be used for deleting an app. It is just horrible to use.
- laumars 5y ago
  You’re getting downvoted but honestly I can’t understand why anyone would defend Finder. It’s appalling. Half of the power user functions one expects from a modern file browser are hidden behind non-discoverable hot keys and the other half just don’t exist at all. It’s honestly the worst file manager of all the major desktop environments. And I’m including the GNOME here too.
  - ungamedplayer 5y ago
    Because people can't stand criticism of their expensive toys.
    - leucineleprec0n 5y ago
      Bingo, though some of us are cynical enough to encourage it lol
  - distances 5y ago
    I fully agree. I always had to resort to command line when I couldn't find cut&paste in Finder. Finder was frankly the worst part of having to use Mac for a project.
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
    Th3yre getting downvoted because they seem somewhat intentionally obtuse. For example; dragging home into the sidebar creates an easy way to get there. It’s also in the menu under “go”. There are icon and “cover flow’ views that work for navigating images. That “fake viewer” is the standard preview. It works reasonably well for most files, and you can install additional viewers.
laumars 5y ago
I usually find the easiest way of installing software on macOS is homebrew. But as great as homebrew is, I’m still left irritated that one of the most profitable companies in the world could make their flagship operating system such a fucking mess. Why is it that free operating systems do a far far better job at managing software installs than any of the commercial ones?
- Osiris 5y ago
  Ways I can install software in Ubuntu: Apt Dpkg Snap AppImage Flatpak Pip Cargo Homebrew Make install And there's pacman, nix, rpm, and a bunch of other package managers for other distros. It's actual worse now than it's ever been. Every program seems to have a different way to install it, or multiple ways and the versions in each package manager are different.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Since openly development systems often give you the most choices, you have way more ways to install software than you listed. But for most purposes, what you'll need on a typical Ubuntu box is all available in the Apt repositories. Giving options doesn't mean you have to use those options. With Ubuntu, you can safely assume (most of the time) that what you need is in a Apt repository. Compare this with macOS where applications does really come from anywhere and it's not safe to assume you can install application from any one place.
    - Osiris 5y ago
      In my experience, recently developed applications are rarely in Apt and use one of the above listed distribution methods. My counter-point to the parent is that installing software in Linux is NOT objectively better, in the sense that it's easier. Software that targets Linux almost always comes with installation instructions one must read (I'm not referring to the normal utilities, etc that have been around forever).
      - southerntofu 5y ago
Milner08 5y ago
You dont have to 'Install' those apps. You're just moving their resource bundle (which yes, is a folder, but most people will not ever know) to a nice place where its easy to find. You can put it where ever you want, but there is an expectation that you will use Applications folder to keep things tidy. I dont see how its confusing, or why a normal user would be confused? They don't know anything about it being a folder unless they explicitly try and open it...
Tagbert 5y ago
For apps that are not installed via an App Store… most will come in either an installer as a PKG file or as just the app files inside of a ZIP or DMG container. With PKGs you double click the file and it leads you through the installation process. With DMG, these mount as disk images and you can then just drag the app into the applications folder. Sometimes they include a link inside the DMG to that applications folder to simplify that process. With ZIP, you double-click the zip file and it unpacks in the current directory. Then you drag the app into the applications folder. These are mainly uses by individual developers or small shops who don’t want to go to the trouble of a PKG or DMG container. Uninstall generally just means dragging an app from applications to the trash can. There is no registry and most apps don’t install helper apps. Those you usually uninstalled via the PKG.

by chubot 5y ago

sitharus 5y ago

This is mostly a historical thing. There’s no real reason to use .dmg these days - historically it was the only Apple-supported way of compressing macOS files and keeping their resource forks intact. These days .zip is fine. That said there isn’t an ‘install’ as such on macOS. Applications isn’t a special folder, it’s a regular folder like anything else. Putting an application bundle on your local disk anywhere is sufficient to get file type mappings to work. The downside of course is there’s no corresponding uninstall that removes anything extra the app dropped in to ~/Library.

unnah 5y ago
So if installation means simply moving an application to your local disk, or specifically to the Applications folder... then how does stuff end up in ~/Library instead?
- einherjae 5y ago
  Preferences, caches, etc. general by-products.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  The app puts it there when it runs.
IshKebab 5y ago
There totally is an install. Tons of apps use a Windows-style install process.
- sitharus 5y ago
  For applications there is no Windows style install process where things like the registry have to be updated, the os manages these associations itself. For things like kernel extensions yes there’s an installer, and some more invasive apps do that as well. But for a plain app there’s no _need_ for an installer. That doesn’t prohibit them of course.
pjc50 5y ago
At work we make a .pkg inside a .dmg, and I'm told this is because that's the only way to have an icon? > Putting an application bundle on your local disk anywhere is sufficient to get file type mappings to work. How does this work "under the hood"? "Bundles" and "packages" as a general concept are interesting. Lots of games from DOOM upwards use "packfiles", which are effectively lots of files in a never-unpacked container. You can't see them in the filesystem, because the intent was to avoid incurring filesystem overhead for them. MacOS bundles appear to have gone in the opposite direction: the structure is brittle (if you move anything it breaks signing), but it's unpacked into the filesystem.
- aasasd 5y ago
  > that's the only way to have an icon Icon for what? .apps inside dmgs have icons just fine, like anywhere else (locally). Moreover, people add background images via some special metadata files, to have those arrows telling you to drop the .app onto the symlink to the Applications folder.
- sitharus 5y ago
  A .app inside a zip is fine. Under the hood, Apple used to have a tech note on it but I can’t find it right now. Essentially the OS uses file system event notifications to watch for bundles being added or removed. It maintains a database of the mappings declared in the plist for fast lookups.

perryizgr8 5y ago

Macos file explorer is the most annoying and unintuitive software I use regularly. 1. Pressing the delete key does not delete the selected file. 2. Enter key renames the file??? 3. Space key opens up some sort of fake viewer that doesn't always work. 4. There is no good way to browse a folder of pictures. 5. No way to navigate to home folder. 6. No way to see full filenames for long names. 7. Bin does not work consistently. I created a shortcut to it in the side panel, but that cannot be used for deleting an app. It is just horrible to use.

laumars 5y ago
You’re getting downvoted but honestly I can’t understand why anyone would defend Finder. It’s appalling. Half of the power user functions one expects from a modern file browser are hidden behind non-discoverable hot keys and the other half just don’t exist at all. It’s honestly the worst file manager of all the major desktop environments. And I’m including the GNOME here too.
- ungamedplayer 5y ago
  Because people can't stand criticism of their expensive toys.
  - leucineleprec0n 5y ago
    Bingo, though some of us are cynical enough to encourage it lol
- distances 5y ago
  I fully agree. I always had to resort to command line when I couldn't find cut&paste in Finder. Finder was frankly the worst part of having to use Mac for a project.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
  Th3yre getting downvoted because they seem somewhat intentionally obtuse. For example; dragging home into the sidebar creates an easy way to get there. It’s also in the menu under “go”. There are icon and “cover flow’ views that work for navigating images. That “fake viewer” is the standard preview. It works reasonably well for most files, and you can install additional viewers.

laumars 5y ago

I usually find the easiest way of installing software on macOS is homebrew. But as great as homebrew is, I’m still left irritated that one of the most profitable companies in the world could make their flagship operating system such a fucking mess. Why is it that free operating systems do a far far better job at managing software installs than any of the commercial ones?

Osiris 5y ago
Ways I can install software in Ubuntu: Apt Dpkg Snap AppImage Flatpak Pip Cargo Homebrew Make install And there's pacman, nix, rpm, and a bunch of other package managers for other distros. It's actual worse now than it's ever been. Every program seems to have a different way to install it, or multiple ways and the versions in each package manager are different.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Since openly development systems often give you the most choices, you have way more ways to install software than you listed. But for most purposes, what you'll need on a typical Ubuntu box is all available in the Apt repositories. Giving options doesn't mean you have to use those options. With Ubuntu, you can safely assume (most of the time) that what you need is in a Apt repository. Compare this with macOS where applications does really come from anywhere and it's not safe to assume you can install application from any one place.
  - Osiris 5y ago
    In my experience, recently developed applications are rarely in Apt and use one of the above listed distribution methods. My counter-point to the parent is that installing software in Linux is NOT objectively better, in the sense that it's easier. Software that targets Linux almost always comes with installation instructions one must read (I'm not referring to the normal utilities, etc that have been around forever).
    - southerntofu 5y ago

Milner08 5y ago

You dont have to 'Install' those apps. You're just moving their resource bundle (which yes, is a folder, but most people will not ever know) to a nice place where its easy to find. You can put it where ever you want, but there is an expectation that you will use Applications folder to keep things tidy. I dont see how its confusing, or why a normal user would be confused? They don't know anything about it being a folder unless they explicitly try and open it...

Tagbert 5y ago

For apps that are not installed via an App Store… most will come in either an installer as a PKG file or as just the app files inside of a ZIP or DMG container. With PKGs you double click the file and it leads you through the installation process. With DMG, these mount as disk images and you can then just drag the app into the applications folder. Sometimes they include a link inside the DMG to that applications folder to simplify that process. With ZIP, you double-click the zip file and it unpacks in the current directory. Then you drag the app into the applications folder. These are mainly uses by individual developers or small shops who don’t want to go to the trouble of a PKG or DMG container. Uninstall generally just means dragging an app from applications to the trash can. There is no registry and most apps don’t install helper apps. Those you usually uninstalled via the PKG.