8 ms·

I'm all for cleaner air (especially reducing dangerous gases and pollutants), but at what point does the over-sterilization of our environment (specifically wit

I'm all for cleaner air (especially reducing dangerous gases and pollutants), but at what point does the over-sterilization of our environment (specifically with regard to microbes) do more harm than good? People in my family suffer from various allergies, and many suspect there may be at least some link to not being exposed to enough allergens at an early age (father was a surgeon and our home was always clean – nearly to the level of an O.R.).

8note 5y ago
Being exposed to allergens at home is the worst. I grew up with a dog, and never tasted or smelled anything until a few years after the dog died
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gpm 5y ago
The particulate matter that I worry about isn't microbes, it's all the crap that we're creating and putting into our environment with things like power generation and vehicles, which makes up the majority of the small particulate matter. Sorry for the crappy source, but I'm short on time right now to find you a better one: https://laqm.defra.gov.uk/public-health/pm25.html https://laqm.defra.gov.uk/public-health/pm25.html
- piyh 5y ago
  The composition of airborne particles depends highly on what size you're measuring. The stuff you see when you kick the carpet is the "big" stuff like cotton breaking down.
- dwd 5y ago
  Radon buildup is also a potential concern if you have your house sealed up. Opening the windows is the best way to clear it, but activated carbon filters should capture it. Just make sure you're masked when you clean or replace any of the filters.
  - andi999 5y ago
    My gut feeling tells me activated carbon is not enough but you need HEPA.
    - SilverRed 5y ago
      Many purifiers contain a carbon and HEPA filter.
  - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
    > Radon buildup is also a potential concern Citation needed? As far as I am aware unless you are building deep underground or have built your house on radon rich bedrock, or your house is entirely made of granite, this is absolutely not a concern for the average person. If you are in doubt you can look up what is the expected radon exposure on the ground region where you live. Most people will have a higher radiation exposure from an arm x-ray than from ground leaking Radon.
    - hvidgaard 5y ago
      It's location dependent, but more people live with radon seeping up from the ground than you would think. Some countries now have building codes that demand the foundation gets sealed to prevent it.
    - 123pie123 5y ago
      in the UK there are many areas that Radon can be an issue from: https://www.ukradon.org/information/ukmaps https://www.ukradon.org/information/ukmaps "Every building contains radon but the levels are usually low. The chances of a higher level depend on the type of ground. Public Health England has published a map showing where high levels are more likely." getting a sensor at a reasonable price is tricky since Radon emits Alpha radiation - I managed to get one at around £300
    - vintermann 5y ago
      Radon is an alpha emitter which gets into your lungs, so that comparison to an arm x-ray isn't entirely fair. Otherwise I agree, it shouldn't be a concern unless you live in the first floor on granite.
modeless 5y ago
This is a legitimate concern. What we do is monitor the outdoor air quality, open the windows when it's good, close them when it's bad, and skip the air filters inside unless indoor air quality is measured to be bad. Which only happens during wildfires as our house is modern and pretty well sealed. Once our children are past the age of 10 or so we will probably go back to running air filters all the time. But the early years are crucial for immune system development and lack of exposure to the natural environment in early years is likely to be one of the biggest reasons for the rise in allergic diseases. Oh, and stop using gas appliances indoors.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  >Oh, and stop using gas appliances indoors. If you get a particle meter you quickly learn that the biggest source of particulate isn't gas but cooking (and especially lightly burning) food. The slightest smell of smoke means your home is going to be like (insert terrible air quality city) for a few minutes to a few hours depending on filtration. One of the worst sources of this is the fact that so few places have real vent fans above cooking surfaces (the sucking through the microwave business does essentially nothing).
  - groby_b 5y ago
    It depends... some microwaves are a) connected to an actual vent and b) have decent suction. However, they cost a sizeable chunk more than the cheap shit you find in rentals. (In SV, that cheap shit is looking spiffy, but it's still cheap shit. If it says Frigidaire, you know it's not exactly high end)
    - colechristensen 5y ago
      I guess I have never encountered a microwave that was actually vented outside. Even so, a real hood would be much preferable.
      - groby_b 5y ago
        Yep - but it's a space question. (I live in a house from the '40s, I have no idea if people back then were somehow 30% smaller or something, but having a full hood and a microwave is just a fantasy given the available space. One day..)
vmception 5y ago
the primary reason I disagree with this is because I didn't have allergies and I grew up with that theory, my immediate circle would criticize allergy prone people as being weak and coddled too hard, not allowed to be exposed to things and then I travelled to another country with different kinds of pollen in the air and I wound up suffering from allergies there, how humiliating! so I thought, but really just humbling looking up how to remedy it I found that one accepted train of thought now is that people are prone to develop allergies at any age, let alone being exposed to things different than where you grew up so I would nip the over-sterilization argument right there. keep indoors clean, go outside.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  Shouldn't your experience make you believe more in the over-sterilization argument? When you traveled you got into contact with allergens that your body hadn't encountered before. If you had been in contact with those allergens when growing up then perhaps you wouldn't have had an allergic reaction? >I found that one accepted train of thought now is that people are prone to develop allergies at any age If you've never had soy before then how could you know whether you have a soy allergy or not? I'm not trying to convince you either way. Just some holes in the argument. I'm allergic to grass pollen myself. I have no idea how that squares with the argument, because I certainly never shied away from grass in the summer. But it's a fairly weak allergy.
  - vmception 5y ago
    You can develop allergies to things you had been exposed to early in your life. That's not a hole, if I didn't make that clear that's what I also meant, in addition to new allergens. Put in other terms, your body can overreact any time for any reason causing inflammation.
colechristensen 5y ago
Two categories, VOC and particles, I don't worry about eliminating from the home. I aspire to have zero particulates in my home air, it takes some doing. Much of the particles are of human/industrial origin anyway. Exhaust and tire particulate and various broken down human built materials. (and an overabundance of human pieces that fall off and collect in ways that wouldn't happen outside) I also aspire to have a low CO2 PPM inside, this conflicts with the previous (i.e. it is difficult without intense forced air exchange with the outside to achieve CO2 levels less than twice outside levels. But to the contrary, I do not use disinfectants ever except in very specific circumstances. I go out of my way to not buy products which make disinfectant claims. I think human beings need to be out in nature, to regularly come into contact with living soil. Not just "nature" of curated footpaths and manicured, fertilized lawns and parks, but actually getting dirty outside where other organisms live. It's hard to do in cities, and growing up on a farm it still seems absurd to me that I have to aspire and do great organizing to find myself somewhere in a city where I am not standing on a surface that has been engineered by people. The closest I can get is usually the strips of grass along the sidewalks that act as nothing but dog toilets. (I love dogs, but city dogs offend me. They're animals, they want to be outside and not just tethered to you or for the occasional adventure to a park) An somewhat gross anecdote: Several weeks ago I got a cut on my foot from some shattered glass that developed into an odd looking infection with red stripes/blotches that I was on the edge of scheduling an appointment for a doctor. I happened to visit a local lake and dipped my toes in for a bit. The next day I was amazed, the redness which had been growing in intensity for a couple of weeks was just completely gone. Maybe it was a coincidence but I strongly believe that whatever was having a grand ol time eating my foot seems to have made a tasty meal for whatever cocktail of microorganisms were hanging out in that lake (I assume it was a fungal infection which was outcompeted by a restored microbiome seeded from the lake)
- Johnny555 5y ago
  I aspire to have zero particulates in my home air, it takes some doing. Much of the particles are of human/industrial origin anyway. Exhaust and tire particulate and various broken down human built materials. Particulates seem to be the easiest to remove -- much easier than VOC's and other gases. My new furnace has a MERV 11 filter that I've been playing around with in recent days as we've had AQI close to 100. I have an air quality monitor (that measures PM1, PM2.5 and PM10) in the house, within about 20 minutes of turning on the furnace blower, AQI of 70 inside the house drops down to less than 10, and 20 minutes after that, it's down in the low single digits. I have a MERV 13 filter that I could put in the furnace, but I'm not sure I need it since the MERV 11 seems to handle it.
criticaltinker 5y ago
> at what point does the over-sterilization of our environment (specifically with regard to microbes) do more harm than good? This is a valid concern, here is a relevant peer-reviewed paper that models the impacts that interventions such as lock-downs, masking, and excessive sanitization may have in the context of the ongoing pandemic [1]. Quotes from [1]: > Nonpharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) have been employed to reduce the transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), yet these measures are already having similar effects on other directly transmitted, endemic diseases. > we consider the implications of SARS-CoV-2 NPIs for two endemic infections circulating in the United States of America: respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) and seasonal influenza > Using laboratory surveillance data from 2020, we estimate that RSV transmission declined by at least 20% in the United States at the start of the NPI period. > We simulate future trajectories of both RSV and influenza, using an epidemic model. As susceptibility increases over the NPI period, we find that substantial outbreaks of RSV may occur in future years, with peak outbreaks likely occurring in the winter of 2021–2022. > Longer NPIs, in general, lead to larger future outbreaks although they may display complex interactions with baseline seasonality The most important takeaway from this paper is that it will be critical to prepare for this phenomenon to prevent the over-utilization of healthcare facilities across the globe. Personally I don't see how anyone could argue for longer and more intense NPIs if we begin to see this play out. [1] The impact of COVID-19 nonpharmaceutical interventions on the future dynamics of endemic infections https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547
londons_explore 5y ago
Is there any evidence that the "clean environment causes allergies" story isn't just explained by "common cleaning products cause allergies"?
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  That is how I’ve understood it: residues of bactericides everywhere which become inhaled dust.
- occz 5y ago
  From what I've understood on the subject is that it's not super-well understood yet, with the common advice early on having been to avoid exposure to common allergens for young children (because potential anaphylactic shock being a bad thing), until it was observed that children i Israel generally showing a lot lower rates of peanut allergies, and that very young children in Israel are exposed to peanut-containing snacks early on. At this point, the advice was reversed to that young children should be exposed to potential allergens early on (because developing a life-long allergy from under-exposure to an allergen is worse). The rest I'm guessing is extrapolation from that - lack of early exposure = negative.
abraae 5y ago
Studies have shown reduced rates of asthma in children who grow up on farms, which I suspect supports your concerns [0]. A damp and mouldy environment is clearly not good, but I wouldn't want my home to be a sterile environment whichlimited opportunity to build immunity. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069066/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069066/
- ch4s3 5y ago
  I grew up on a farm with a lot of animals around, and spent a ton of time in the woods until I was 18. I have terrible allergies and asthma, so farm life was pretty awful. YMMV
- supperburg 5y ago
  No, it almost certainly does not. There are lots of reasons why farmers would have less asthma, one being the fact that there is a correlation with asthma and ASD, a correlation with ASD and intellectual excellence and therefore a potential reason why you don’t find many farmers with asthma or other disorders on the autoimmune spectrum. This study is a heuristic at best. Kill epidemiology with a rusty pocket knife.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
It’s not just about the #’s. There is a huge difference between indoor air composition (which humans haven’t evolved for millions of years to account for) and outdoor air composition for the same, say, PM2.5 metric. E.g. indoor air might be mostly dead skin and dust mites, outdoor air might be mostly burned ash and bacteria, etc. Unfortunately, the fact is that most people are now spending something like 20 hours a day inside… there is no easy answer. I sometimes wonder how much the sterilization hypothesis is wrapped up in the effect of prolonged indoor air exposure.
- r00fus 5y ago
  This is why I feel a run or bike ride outside is worth far more than the same amount of time indoors in a gym. Combined with a bit of weight lifting (which you can do at home), it's a pretty good total body workout. I am happy many folks around where I live started to go out for their exercise during COVID but I hope they keep that outdoor habit after the pandemic is over.
  - tartoran 5y ago
    If you can take your bike ride where there isn’t much traffic and more nature by any means it’d probably be not only better for your body but also for your mind. A lot of us are spending way too much time indoors and should take any ocasion to be outdoors
    - Johnny555 5y ago
      I switched from biking to work to riding a spin bike after the pandemic lockdowns, and since I'm no longer riding on roads with traffic, I've probably increased my life expectancy since I'm not going to get hit by a car in my livingroom.
      - r00fus 5y ago
        I usually ride my bike around 5:30-7am when traffic usually isn't a concern. I also choose routes that are also low-traffic but still rewarding (decent climb and scenery).
legulere 5y ago
Air pollution is probably one factor in the development of allergies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3192198/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3192198/ Playing in mud and with animals is probably beneficial, but unclean air isn’t.
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  Unclean air is as vague a term as any.
  - p_j_w 5y ago
    The link he references does a pretty good job establishing what he meant by the phrase "unclean air."
aszantu 5y ago
I'd say: look at what they're allergic to and check in with anti-nutrients. Sometimes ppl are not just allergic to gluten, but the whole category of lectin(which is in every seed), they just don't react as strongly, but they're never really healthy and suffer from all kinds of ailments.
melomal 5y ago
This is something that I've been told over and over - early exposure to things like dust, pollen, nuts etc basically eliminates allergies when older. As an example, I was never exposed to cats early age but dogs yes. Now I have a mild reaction to cats hair and nothing with dogs. Of course this isn't a scientific study that can be validated but it does sort of make sense in my mind. A la antibodies etc.
- feanaro 5y ago
  My wife was exposed to both from an early age and this continued until she was 15. Then she developed a mild allergy to dogs and a stronger allergy to cats (can't be in the same room with one). Allergies aren't a simple phenomenon.
  - melomal 5y ago
    I strangely had the same experience with hay fever. Never suffered from it then right around 15 it hit me pretty bad. I moved countries 5 years ago and again I no longer have hay fever symptoms so for sure they are not simple.

8note 5y ago

Being exposed to allergens at home is the worst. I grew up with a dog, and never tasted or smelled anything until a few years after the dog died

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gpm 5y ago

The particulate matter that I worry about isn't microbes, it's all the crap that we're creating and putting into our environment with things like power generation and vehicles, which makes up the majority of the small particulate matter. Sorry for the crappy source, but I'm short on time right now to find you a better one: https://laqm.defra.gov.uk/public-health/pm25.html https://laqm.defra.gov.uk/public-health/pm25.html

piyh 5y ago
The composition of airborne particles depends highly on what size you're measuring. The stuff you see when you kick the carpet is the "big" stuff like cotton breaking down.
dwd 5y ago
Radon buildup is also a potential concern if you have your house sealed up. Opening the windows is the best way to clear it, but activated carbon filters should capture it. Just make sure you're masked when you clean or replace any of the filters.
- andi999 5y ago
  My gut feeling tells me activated carbon is not enough but you need HEPA.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    Many purifiers contain a carbon and HEPA filter.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  > Radon buildup is also a potential concern Citation needed? As far as I am aware unless you are building deep underground or have built your house on radon rich bedrock, or your house is entirely made of granite, this is absolutely not a concern for the average person. If you are in doubt you can look up what is the expected radon exposure on the ground region where you live. Most people will have a higher radiation exposure from an arm x-ray than from ground leaking Radon.
  - hvidgaard 5y ago
    It's location dependent, but more people live with radon seeping up from the ground than you would think. Some countries now have building codes that demand the foundation gets sealed to prevent it.
  - 123pie123 5y ago
    in the UK there are many areas that Radon can be an issue from: https://www.ukradon.org/information/ukmaps https://www.ukradon.org/information/ukmaps "Every building contains radon but the levels are usually low. The chances of a higher level depend on the type of ground. Public Health England has published a map showing where high levels are more likely." getting a sensor at a reasonable price is tricky since Radon emits Alpha radiation - I managed to get one at around £300
  - vintermann 5y ago
    Radon is an alpha emitter which gets into your lungs, so that comparison to an arm x-ray isn't entirely fair. Otherwise I agree, it shouldn't be a concern unless you live in the first floor on granite.

modeless 5y ago

This is a legitimate concern. What we do is monitor the outdoor air quality, open the windows when it's good, close them when it's bad, and skip the air filters inside unless indoor air quality is measured to be bad. Which only happens during wildfires as our house is modern and pretty well sealed. Once our children are past the age of 10 or so we will probably go back to running air filters all the time. But the early years are crucial for immune system development and lack of exposure to the natural environment in early years is likely to be one of the biggest reasons for the rise in allergic diseases. Oh, and stop using gas appliances indoors.

colechristensen 5y ago
>Oh, and stop using gas appliances indoors. If you get a particle meter you quickly learn that the biggest source of particulate isn't gas but cooking (and especially lightly burning) food. The slightest smell of smoke means your home is going to be like (insert terrible air quality city) for a few minutes to a few hours depending on filtration. One of the worst sources of this is the fact that so few places have real vent fans above cooking surfaces (the sucking through the microwave business does essentially nothing).
- groby_b 5y ago
  It depends... some microwaves are a) connected to an actual vent and b) have decent suction. However, they cost a sizeable chunk more than the cheap shit you find in rentals. (In SV, that cheap shit is looking spiffy, but it's still cheap shit. If it says Frigidaire, you know it's not exactly high end)
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    I guess I have never encountered a microwave that was actually vented outside. Even so, a real hood would be much preferable.
    - groby_b 5y ago
      Yep - but it's a space question. (I live in a house from the '40s, I have no idea if people back then were somehow 30% smaller or something, but having a full hood and a microwave is just a fantasy given the available space. One day..)

vmception 5y ago

the primary reason I disagree with this is because I didn't have allergies and I grew up with that theory, my immediate circle would criticize allergy prone people as being weak and coddled too hard, not allowed to be exposed to things and then I travelled to another country with different kinds of pollen in the air and I wound up suffering from allergies there, how humiliating! so I thought, but really just humbling looking up how to remedy it I found that one accepted train of thought now is that people are prone to develop allergies at any age, let alone being exposed to things different than where you grew up so I would nip the over-sterilization argument right there. keep indoors clean, go outside.

Aerroon 5y ago
Shouldn't your experience make you believe more in the over-sterilization argument? When you traveled you got into contact with allergens that your body hadn't encountered before. If you had been in contact with those allergens when growing up then perhaps you wouldn't have had an allergic reaction? >I found that one accepted train of thought now is that people are prone to develop allergies at any age If you've never had soy before then how could you know whether you have a soy allergy or not? I'm not trying to convince you either way. Just some holes in the argument. I'm allergic to grass pollen myself. I have no idea how that squares with the argument, because I certainly never shied away from grass in the summer. But it's a fairly weak allergy.
- vmception 5y ago
  You can develop allergies to things you had been exposed to early in your life. That's not a hole, if I didn't make that clear that's what I also meant, in addition to new allergens. Put in other terms, your body can overreact any time for any reason causing inflammation.

colechristensen 5y ago

Two categories, VOC and particles, I don't worry about eliminating from the home. I aspire to have zero particulates in my home air, it takes some doing. Much of the particles are of human/industrial origin anyway. Exhaust and tire particulate and various broken down human built materials. (and an overabundance of human pieces that fall off and collect in ways that wouldn't happen outside) I also aspire to have a low CO2 PPM inside, this conflicts with the previous (i.e. it is difficult without intense forced air exchange with the outside to achieve CO2 levels less than twice outside levels. But to the contrary, I do not use disinfectants ever except in very specific circumstances. I go out of my way to not buy products which make disinfectant claims. I think human beings need to be out in nature, to regularly come into contact with living soil. Not just "nature" of curated footpaths and manicured, fertilized lawns and parks, but actually getting dirty outside where other organisms live. It's hard to do in cities, and growing up on a farm it still seems absurd to me that I have to aspire and do great organizing to find myself somewhere in a city where I am not standing on a surface that has been engineered by people. The closest I can get is usually the strips of grass along the sidewalks that act as nothing but dog toilets. (I love dogs, but city dogs offend me. They're animals, they want to be outside and not just tethered to you or for the occasional adventure to a park) An somewhat gross anecdote: Several weeks ago I got a cut on my foot from some shattered glass that developed into an odd looking infection with red stripes/blotches that I was on the edge of scheduling an appointment for a doctor. I happened to visit a local lake and dipped my toes in for a bit. The next day I was amazed, the redness which had been growing in intensity for a couple of weeks was just completely gone. Maybe it was a coincidence but I strongly believe that whatever was having a grand ol time eating my foot seems to have made a tasty meal for whatever cocktail of microorganisms were hanging out in that lake (I assume it was a fungal infection which was outcompeted by a restored microbiome seeded from the lake)

Johnny555 5y ago
I aspire to have zero particulates in my home air, it takes some doing. Much of the particles are of human/industrial origin anyway. Exhaust and tire particulate and various broken down human built materials. Particulates seem to be the easiest to remove -- much easier than VOC's and other gases. My new furnace has a MERV 11 filter that I've been playing around with in recent days as we've had AQI close to 100. I have an air quality monitor (that measures PM1, PM2.5 and PM10) in the house, within about 20 minutes of turning on the furnace blower, AQI of 70 inside the house drops down to less than 10, and 20 minutes after that, it's down in the low single digits. I have a MERV 13 filter that I could put in the furnace, but I'm not sure I need it since the MERV 11 seems to handle it.

criticaltinker 5y ago

> at what point does the over-sterilization of our environment (specifically with regard to microbes) do more harm than good? This is a valid concern, here is a relevant peer-reviewed paper that models the impacts that interventions such as lock-downs, masking, and excessive sanitization may have in the context of the ongoing pandemic [1]. Quotes from [1]: > Nonpharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) have been employed to reduce the transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), yet these measures are already having similar effects on other directly transmitted, endemic diseases. > we consider the implications of SARS-CoV-2 NPIs for two endemic infections circulating in the United States of America: respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) and seasonal influenza > Using laboratory surveillance data from 2020, we estimate that RSV transmission declined by at least 20% in the United States at the start of the NPI period. > We simulate future trajectories of both RSV and influenza, using an epidemic model. As susceptibility increases over the NPI period, we find that substantial outbreaks of RSV may occur in future years, with peak outbreaks likely occurring in the winter of 2021–2022. > Longer NPIs, in general, lead to larger future outbreaks although they may display complex interactions with baseline seasonality The most important takeaway from this paper is that it will be critical to prepare for this phenomenon to prevent the over-utilization of healthcare facilities across the globe. Personally I don't see how anyone could argue for longer and more intense NPIs if we begin to see this play out. [1] The impact of COVID-19 nonpharmaceutical interventions on the future dynamics of endemic infections https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/48/30547

londons_explore 5y ago

Is there any evidence that the "clean environment causes allergies" story isn't just explained by "common cleaning products cause allergies"?

eurasiantiger 5y ago
That is how I’ve understood it: residues of bactericides everywhere which become inhaled dust.
occz 5y ago
From what I've understood on the subject is that it's not super-well understood yet, with the common advice early on having been to avoid exposure to common allergens for young children (because potential anaphylactic shock being a bad thing), until it was observed that children i Israel generally showing a lot lower rates of peanut allergies, and that very young children in Israel are exposed to peanut-containing snacks early on. At this point, the advice was reversed to that young children should be exposed to potential allergens early on (because developing a life-long allergy from under-exposure to an allergen is worse). The rest I'm guessing is extrapolation from that - lack of early exposure = negative.

abraae 5y ago

Studies have shown reduced rates of asthma in children who grow up on farms, which I suspect supports your concerns [0]. A damp and mouldy environment is clearly not good, but I wouldn't want my home to be a sterile environment whichlimited opportunity to build immunity. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069066/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069066/

ch4s3 5y ago
I grew up on a farm with a lot of animals around, and spent a ton of time in the woods until I was 18. I have terrible allergies and asthma, so farm life was pretty awful. YMMV
supperburg 5y ago
No, it almost certainly does not. There are lots of reasons why farmers would have less asthma, one being the fact that there is a correlation with asthma and ASD, a correlation with ASD and intellectual excellence and therefore a potential reason why you don’t find many farmers with asthma or other disorders on the autoimmune spectrum. This study is a heuristic at best. Kill epidemiology with a rusty pocket knife.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

It’s not just about the #’s. There is a huge difference between indoor air composition (which humans haven’t evolved for millions of years to account for) and outdoor air composition for the same, say, PM2.5 metric. E.g. indoor air might be mostly dead skin and dust mites, outdoor air might be mostly burned ash and bacteria, etc. Unfortunately, the fact is that most people are now spending something like 20 hours a day inside… there is no easy answer. I sometimes wonder how much the sterilization hypothesis is wrapped up in the effect of prolonged indoor air exposure.

r00fus 5y ago
This is why I feel a run or bike ride outside is worth far more than the same amount of time indoors in a gym. Combined with a bit of weight lifting (which you can do at home), it's a pretty good total body workout. I am happy many folks around where I live started to go out for their exercise during COVID but I hope they keep that outdoor habit after the pandemic is over.
- tartoran 5y ago
  If you can take your bike ride where there isn’t much traffic and more nature by any means it’d probably be not only better for your body but also for your mind. A lot of us are spending way too much time indoors and should take any ocasion to be outdoors
  - Johnny555 5y ago
    I switched from biking to work to riding a spin bike after the pandemic lockdowns, and since I'm no longer riding on roads with traffic, I've probably increased my life expectancy since I'm not going to get hit by a car in my livingroom.
    - r00fus 5y ago
      I usually ride my bike around 5:30-7am when traffic usually isn't a concern. I also choose routes that are also low-traffic but still rewarding (decent climb and scenery).

legulere 5y ago

Air pollution is probably one factor in the development of allergies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3192198/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3192198/ Playing in mud and with animals is probably beneficial, but unclean air isn’t.

vagrantJin 5y ago
Unclean air is as vague a term as any.
- p_j_w 5y ago
  The link he references does a pretty good job establishing what he meant by the phrase "unclean air."

aszantu 5y ago

I'd say: look at what they're allergic to and check in with anti-nutrients. Sometimes ppl are not just allergic to gluten, but the whole category of lectin(which is in every seed), they just don't react as strongly, but they're never really healthy and suffer from all kinds of ailments.

melomal 5y ago

This is something that I've been told over and over - early exposure to things like dust, pollen, nuts etc basically eliminates allergies when older. As an example, I was never exposed to cats early age but dogs yes. Now I have a mild reaction to cats hair and nothing with dogs. Of course this isn't a scientific study that can be validated but it does sort of make sense in my mind. A la antibodies etc.

feanaro 5y ago
My wife was exposed to both from an early age and this continued until she was 15. Then she developed a mild allergy to dogs and a stronger allergy to cats (can't be in the same room with one). Allergies aren't a simple phenomenon.
- melomal 5y ago
  I strangely had the same experience with hay fever. Never suffered from it then right around 15 it hit me pretty bad. I moved countries 5 years ago and again I no longer have hay fever symptoms so for sure they are not simple.