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What are the HN thoughts on whether the future apple silicon will be able leverage discrete graphics like this new card, or only work with apple's own first-par

What are the HN thoughts on whether the future apple silicon will be able leverage discrete graphics like this new card, or only work with apple's own first-party GPUs?

orik 5y ago
The current video bios’s have x86 assembly in them making them not compatible. Work would need to be done here first. Historically, GPU’s released for Mac’s have had their own bios anyway (EFI support). Then Apple will need to include drivers for the card in the OS (AMD drivers in MacOS typically lag 9 months from availability of the card for Windows) or alternatively NVIDA would need to write new drivers that Apple approves of, instead of shipping the same binary blob to all three platforms (the NVIDIA drivers were very buggy on MacOS). Will Apple and AMD / NVIDIA strike up a partnership to do this? Not sure why they would. I expect NVIDIA to have ARM friendly GPU’s on Windows before AMD though, given their interest in the space & SOC’a they make. It will be interesting to see if in PC / ARM land if standards arise for motherboards, plug and play components, or if we will only ever sell & buy completely integrated systems.
- tw04 5y ago
  > The current video bios’s have x86 assembly in them making them not compatible. Work would need to be done here first. Historically, GPU’s released for Mac’s have had their own bios anyway (EFI support). I’m not sure this is accurate. I’ve definitely popped an nvidia card into a sparc box and had it work. And IBM supports nvidia GPUs in their power systems. https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/data-center-gpus/tesla-qualified-servers-catalog/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/data-center-gpus/te...
  - dathinab 5y ago
    I don't remember the details but, I believe to remember that: > > The current video bios’s have x86 assembly in them making them not compatible. Is somewhat right. But it's only needed for certain modes and initialization and: 1. Potentially can be sidestepped (depending on GPU bios) 2. The respective code can be interpreted, transpilled or otherwise "made to execute on non-x86 computers". Sadly I wasn't able to find the details on the fly, and I'm not sure if it's something which was done by your OS or BIOS/UEFI.
- dogma1138 5y ago
  GPUs can already run on ARM SBCs with PCIe. Here is an off the shelf Radeon 6700XT running on a RISC V dev board… https://www.notebookcheck.net/Computer-scientist-showcases-world-s-first-RISC-V-based-Linux-PC-coupled-with-an-AMD-RX-6700-XT-GPU.552002.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Computer-scientist-showcases-w... The VBIOS is only needed for legacy mode to enable things like GPU init for basic text rendering, while it still exists on modern GPUs it’s not commonly used for initialization, on all systems with UEFI the GPU is initialized using GOP (or UGA on EFI) which is ISA independent.
  - dathinab 5y ago
    Thanks for the link.
wmf 5y ago
I'm predicting first-party only. It simplifies the graphics stack and scaling up the GPU shouldn't be too difficult.
wil421 5y ago
> Exceptional Performance for Creators The writing has been on the wall for a while in regards to Apple. Last time I suggested this topic it was down voted heavily. Apple’s Pro lineup, from laptops to desktops, has been catered toward creative types not developers for a while. They have the best hardware in the and that’s why we want them. Apple only cares about developers who are developing apps for their platforms they do not care about developers using their products for other development. It’s not their focus.
- dathinab 5y ago
  > Apple only cares about developers who are developing apps for their platforms IDK, it often feels like they don't care much about them either. I mean you know because of the users they are kinda forced to feed up with apple anyway even if they don't like it. I mean I work for a company developing a App (with web version) and if there is a target specific problem it's most times Apple: - The first version(s) of our web version won't support Safari as it's technically simple impossible. - We currently have to live with some dev annoyances for all targets due too apple taking to long to update their software stack (XCode/LLVM). - The fact that (in difference to android) you can't just simply emulate iOS or install Safari on Linux/Windows can make testing harder (on CI we have do have Mac/iOs tests, so it's only harder instead of impossible). - Even just some ad-hoc scripts around the dev workflow ran into problems because OS X lacking behind years (should we say over a decade by now?) when it comes to updating basic CLI/shell tools. - Compared to windows documentation of some (especially new) things can be quite crappy in my experience. - Long update cycles can mean you have to wait forever for bug fixes. - ... It often feels that when adding support for Windows/Linux/Android to a Linux/Windows/Android program written mostly with cross platform tooling would add 10% workload adding Apple support doubles the workload, or might not even be possible. Oh and non of the problems we ran into had anything to do with privacy...
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I am confused, so Apple cares about developers or not?
  - wil421 5y ago
mastax 5y ago
The rumors about ARM Mac Pro say it'll have a big Apple GPU. If they were going to keep doing the discrete GPU thing, I'd expect the integrated GPU to be more barebones. Though given that they just made a big deal about releasing an expandable Mac pro I'd be somewhat surprised if they dropped support for discrete GPUs. I know people use other types of add-in cards but it's a large portion. Maybe discrete Apple GPUs?
- dathinab 5y ago
  Apple GPUs had been focused on the iOS APIs, I wouldn't be surprised if there is still a gap to fill until they can compare to this kind of GPU setups for the given workloads. Which can also be because of (software) vendor support not being as good yet. Also let's not forgot how bad graphic drivers have been on Mac as long as you don't limit yourself to the subset iOS likes you to use...
  - wmf 5y ago
    Apple GPUs use the Metal API while AMD GPUs for Macs use... the Metal API. Obviously there are driver-level differences, but pro apps are working on the Apple GPU so it can't be that bad.
  - philistine 5y ago
    When you say graphics drivers, I think you meant to say OpenGL support. Drivers on the Mac are not a problem, when they exist.
mastazi 5y ago
Apple's marketing materials related to the M1 underlined the point that an integrated GPU is not a bad thing because of the unified memory / high bandwidth. I agree with that point. So, I expect that if they come out with a "discrete" GPU, they will have some innovative solution in terms of communication between the main SoC and the GPU, and maybe there won't be a PCIe connector like we are used to in PCs.
- dathinab 5y ago
  Or they do something similar like Intel recently did: Advertise some magic to use both the integrated graphics and the discrete graphics, but in the end it was just a more or less straight forward distribution of workloads over multiple GPU's without any "hardware" magic. And IMHO that probably is good enough for most use cases if done well, as many common tasks can be split surprisingly well e.g. run desktop and application GUI as well as fast hardware accelerated (already existing) video decoder on iGPU but place the video encoding and complex computations on the discrete GPU or similar.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    Yes you are right, they could follow a model where the main silicon itself is unchanged compared to laptops/iMac/Mini - so there is still the integrated GPU, and the discrete GPU is an addition to it. I think your guess makes more sense than mine, because from Apple's point of view it would be good not having to deal with additional SKUs in the Apple Silicon line.
littlecranky67 5y ago
I think apple silicon will work with AMD in the future and AMD will be the GPU supplier for high-end workstations as the Mac Pro and iMac (in some configurations). As impressive as the M1 being on-par or even better as Intel CPUs, I don't think Apple can pull the same with a GPU (developing and relesing a high-end GPU that is on-par with AMD/Nvidia performance wise). While I think they could achieve that given their engineering resources, I don't see a ROI for them on that matter. They will focus on low- and mid-range, power-efficient iGPUs to support everyday usage, but the high-end segment is not important for their overall business. The market for Mac Pro is just not big enough in their overall lineup to compete with AMD on that matter - as they will not ever become a GPU supplier to Windows machines and always focus only on the Mac.

What are the HN thoughts on whether the future apple silicon will be able leverage discrete graphics like this new card, or only work with apple's own first-party GPUs?

orik 5y ago

The current video bios’s have x86 assembly in them making them not compatible. Work would need to be done here first. Historically, GPU’s released for Mac’s have had their own bios anyway (EFI support). Then Apple will need to include drivers for the card in the OS (AMD drivers in MacOS typically lag 9 months from availability of the card for Windows) or alternatively NVIDA would need to write new drivers that Apple approves of, instead of shipping the same binary blob to all three platforms (the NVIDIA drivers were very buggy on MacOS). Will Apple and AMD / NVIDIA strike up a partnership to do this? Not sure why they would. I expect NVIDIA to have ARM friendly GPU’s on Windows before AMD though, given their interest in the space & SOC’a they make. It will be interesting to see if in PC / ARM land if standards arise for motherboards, plug and play components, or if we will only ever sell & buy completely integrated systems.

tw04 5y ago
> The current video bios’s have x86 assembly in them making them not compatible. Work would need to be done here first. Historically, GPU’s released for Mac’s have had their own bios anyway (EFI support). I’m not sure this is accurate. I’ve definitely popped an nvidia card into a sparc box and had it work. And IBM supports nvidia GPUs in their power systems. https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/data-center-gpus/tesla-qualified-servers-catalog/ https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/data-center-gpus/te...
- dathinab 5y ago
  I don't remember the details but, I believe to remember that: > > The current video bios’s have x86 assembly in them making them not compatible. Is somewhat right. But it's only needed for certain modes and initialization and: 1. Potentially can be sidestepped (depending on GPU bios) 2. The respective code can be interpreted, transpilled or otherwise "made to execute on non-x86 computers". Sadly I wasn't able to find the details on the fly, and I'm not sure if it's something which was done by your OS or BIOS/UEFI.
dogma1138 5y ago
GPUs can already run on ARM SBCs with PCIe. Here is an off the shelf Radeon 6700XT running on a RISC V dev board… https://www.notebookcheck.net/Computer-scientist-showcases-world-s-first-RISC-V-based-Linux-PC-coupled-with-an-AMD-RX-6700-XT-GPU.552002.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Computer-scientist-showcases-w... The VBIOS is only needed for legacy mode to enable things like GPU init for basic text rendering, while it still exists on modern GPUs it’s not commonly used for initialization, on all systems with UEFI the GPU is initialized using GOP (or UGA on EFI) which is ISA independent.
- dathinab 5y ago
  Thanks for the link.

wmf 5y ago

I'm predicting first-party only. It simplifies the graphics stack and scaling up the GPU shouldn't be too difficult.

wil421 5y ago

> Exceptional Performance for Creators The writing has been on the wall for a while in regards to Apple. Last time I suggested this topic it was down voted heavily. Apple’s Pro lineup, from laptops to desktops, has been catered toward creative types not developers for a while. They have the best hardware in the and that’s why we want them. Apple only cares about developers who are developing apps for their platforms they do not care about developers using their products for other development. It’s not their focus.

dathinab 5y ago
> Apple only cares about developers who are developing apps for their platforms IDK, it often feels like they don't care much about them either. I mean you know because of the users they are kinda forced to feed up with apple anyway even if they don't like it. I mean I work for a company developing a App (with web version) and if there is a target specific problem it's most times Apple: - The first version(s) of our web version won't support Safari as it's technically simple impossible. - We currently have to live with some dev annoyances for all targets due too apple taking to long to update their software stack (XCode/LLVM). - The fact that (in difference to android) you can't just simply emulate iOS or install Safari on Linux/Windows can make testing harder (on CI we have do have Mac/iOs tests, so it's only harder instead of impossible). - Even just some ad-hoc scripts around the dev workflow ran into problems because OS X lacking behind years (should we say over a decade by now?) when it comes to updating basic CLI/shell tools. - Compared to windows documentation of some (especially new) things can be quite crappy in my experience. - Long update cycles can mean you have to wait forever for bug fixes. - ... It often feels that when adding support for Windows/Linux/Android to a Linux/Windows/Android program written mostly with cross platform tooling would add 10% workload adding Apple support doubles the workload, or might not even be possible. Oh and non of the problems we ran into had anything to do with privacy...
pjmlp 5y ago
I am confused, so Apple cares about developers or not?
- wil421 5y ago

mastax 5y ago

The rumors about ARM Mac Pro say it'll have a big Apple GPU. If they were going to keep doing the discrete GPU thing, I'd expect the integrated GPU to be more barebones. Though given that they just made a big deal about releasing an expandable Mac pro I'd be somewhat surprised if they dropped support for discrete GPUs. I know people use other types of add-in cards but it's a large portion. Maybe discrete Apple GPUs?

dathinab 5y ago
Apple GPUs had been focused on the iOS APIs, I wouldn't be surprised if there is still a gap to fill until they can compare to this kind of GPU setups for the given workloads. Which can also be because of (software) vendor support not being as good yet. Also let's not forgot how bad graphic drivers have been on Mac as long as you don't limit yourself to the subset iOS likes you to use...
- wmf 5y ago
  Apple GPUs use the Metal API while AMD GPUs for Macs use... the Metal API. Obviously there are driver-level differences, but pro apps are working on the Apple GPU so it can't be that bad.
- philistine 5y ago
  When you say graphics drivers, I think you meant to say OpenGL support. Drivers on the Mac are not a problem, when they exist.

mastazi 5y ago

Apple's marketing materials related to the M1 underlined the point that an integrated GPU is not a bad thing because of the unified memory / high bandwidth. I agree with that point. So, I expect that if they come out with a "discrete" GPU, they will have some innovative solution in terms of communication between the main SoC and the GPU, and maybe there won't be a PCIe connector like we are used to in PCs.

dathinab 5y ago
Or they do something similar like Intel recently did: Advertise some magic to use both the integrated graphics and the discrete graphics, but in the end it was just a more or less straight forward distribution of workloads over multiple GPU's without any "hardware" magic. And IMHO that probably is good enough for most use cases if done well, as many common tasks can be split surprisingly well e.g. run desktop and application GUI as well as fast hardware accelerated (already existing) video decoder on iGPU but place the video encoding and complex computations on the discrete GPU or similar.
- mastazi 5y ago
  Yes you are right, they could follow a model where the main silicon itself is unchanged compared to laptops/iMac/Mini - so there is still the integrated GPU, and the discrete GPU is an addition to it. I think your guess makes more sense than mine, because from Apple's point of view it would be good not having to deal with additional SKUs in the Apple Silicon line.

littlecranky67 5y ago

I think apple silicon will work with AMD in the future and AMD will be the GPU supplier for high-end workstations as the Mac Pro and iMac (in some configurations). As impressive as the M1 being on-par or even better as Intel CPUs, I don't think Apple can pull the same with a GPU (developing and relesing a high-end GPU that is on-par with AMD/Nvidia performance wise). While I think they could achieve that given their engineering resources, I don't see a ROI for them on that matter. They will focus on low- and mid-range, power-efficient iGPUs to support everyday usage, but the high-end segment is not important for their overall business. The market for Mac Pro is just not big enough in their overall lineup to compete with AMD on that matter - as they will not ever become a GPU supplier to Windows machines and always focus only on the Mac.