7 ms·

> For added fun, a Sun Type 5 keyboard converted to USB We must have _very_ different definitions of fun. The pile of mush that was the Type 5 is up pretty hig

by abeyer 5y ago

> For added fun, a Sun Type 5 keyboard converted to USB We must have _very_ different definitions of fun. The pile of mush that was the Type 5 is up pretty high on my list of "never again" keyboards. I was a full on Sun fanboy, but even I was the first to admit that their input devices could be pretty awful.

jeffrallen 5y ago
Sun optical mice were a pain in the ass too.
- wyldfire 5y ago
  The ones w the reflective metallic mousepad?
  - abeyer 5y ago
    yup, and the marks were painted on, so started wearing off (and thus losing mouse resolution) the second you started using it.
    - hughrr 5y ago
      This thread brings me pleasant memories of drunken post student union bar C hacking sessions in the 90s. Apart from the mice. And openwindows. Fuck both of them!
      - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
        What's wrong with openwindows? Always like it.
    - chasil 5y ago
      This was a "Mouse Systems" design. Early mechanical mice commonly had a switch labeled PC/MS which would toggle the protocol used by the device. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems I own one somewhere in a closet.
- adrianmonk 5y ago
  Hey, I'm moving the mouse but the pointer isn't going much of anywhere! What's wrong?! Oh yeah, the mouse isn't CORRECTLY ALIGNED with the mouse pad! I'd better check if the mouse pad has moved out of its proper position on the desk. And pay a bit more attention to how I'm holding the mouse so that I don't introduce too much rotation about the vertical axis. That alignment was something I never had to worry about with any type of mouse I used before or after. On the other hand, it worked pretty well when it was lined up right. It really seemed to track motion more smoothly and accurately than mechanical mice. For those who don't understand why it had to be aligned, Wikipedia has an article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems) with two good photos. Mouse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Sun_optical_mouse.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Sun_... Close-up of grid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Mouse-Systems-Mousepad-Detail.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Mous...
neilv 5y ago
I don't know whether to blame the Type 4, something about our desks, or something in the water... but our entire development team were getting RSI problems, like I haven't heard of before or since. (Fortunately, there was chatter on the Internet about this problem at the time, and I learned the very simple workstation adjustments that worked for me. Ever since, I've been able to type like crazy, with no discomfort. To this day, I give everyone The Talk about typing RSI injuries, the set of usual culprits I know about, so you can adjust and see what works for you, and the absolute necessity of not working through typing pain. And if someone is noticing typing-related pain, they need to get a referral to a specialist(s), they need to keep on the specialist so they don't fall through the cracks, and they need to do what the specialist says.)
- cyberpunk 5y ago
  What were those very simple workspace adjustments? … asking for a friend…
  - neilv 5y ago
    My understanding is that what works for a person varies, but here's some of the approx. dozen changes that I ended up making for myself (sorry have to be quick right now): * lower keyboard shelf so forearms could be parallel to ground. I've found many desks can be lowered. one place, I found the mount for the detachable commercial-grade desk legs matched that of some lower side table in our lab area; so, in a late-night operation, the table used for lunch catering trays got strangely taller, and I suddenly looked strangely taller next to my desk height. * wrists straight in line with forearms, as viewed from both side and from top. (I actually found my first-in-ages typing soreness briefly last year, when I used some laptop with a numeric keypad, and i realized that one of my hands was twisted to the side awkwardly to keep the screen centered. fortunately, that was only for a couple days, and i was able to switch back to a sane laptop * some people like wrist rests, but others say wrist rests encourage bad positions or pressure; i tried them then switched to without, but i suppose they might work for some people, and i don't know the research * both keyboard and monitor straight ahead of torso, not to one side * maybe eyes even with top of monitor (this advice might've been intended for 13-17" 4:3 CRTs, and I'm not really good about it) * arms should hang comfortably at sides. if I can't get a chair without armrests, usually they can be removed with a few bolts. * feet flat on the floor might've helped * some people benefit from typing breaks. and also from vision breaks, and stopping to focus on things in distance. i didn't seem to need either for any kind of discomfort (though I am a bit near-sighted, so maybe vision breaks would help) * stress seems to contribute * pressing simultaneous-multi-key combinations with the same hand, especially if stretching/twisting/straining the hand, is bad. one big thing I did with Emacs is switch from holding down Alt for Meta, to pressing and releasing Esc (except for Meta key combinations I might be pressing many times, like for undo or for incremental search, in which case I could hold down Al). I also tried to use other modifier keys with two hands -- one hand for the modifier, the other for the non-modifier. * there was some of talk about the RSI from switching hands back and forth between finding the mouse and finding home row. Also, Sun used this Mouse Systems mouse with an optical pad that has to be placed, rather than maybe the body naturally finding where a good area of travel for the mouse is. And the mouse buttons could've been easier to press. * The Sun keyboards also had a set of special function keys for things like copy&paste, and I don't know whether moving off home row to reach for those and then go back to find home row is a significant strain. * (Later on, I switched to Trackpoint keyboards, which let my fingers stay around home row, and requires only very slight movement and pressure. I vaguely recall first trying Trackpoint when in a very stressful situation, and i did get some soreness in my Trackpoint finger, IIRC, but it soon went away. I mentioned this to the Trackpoint inventor, and he seemed unsurprised, but maybe slightly sad that Trackpoint wasn't perfect in all ways. I suppose the newer designs of Trackpoint cap might also help, rather than the hard sandpaper one I was probably using at the time. Today, I put 15-year-old new-old-stock Trackpoint keyboards into 10-year-old Thinkpads as my primary workstation.) * (I also now have a "lectern" standing desk, $200 on Amazon, that fits a laptop, beverage coaster, and a small device like smartphone or embedded device. I never bother to adjust the height, but it's good to stand for chunks of time, and it can be moved around to wherever the light is good, view out the window, etc. Some partners and customers require videoconf apps that I don't trust on workstation, so those go on an iPad that gets put on a little arm clamped on back of the lectern as needed; and then the arm is mostly hidden when not in use, by clamping upside-down to the back of the lectern.) * (Today, I don't have to think about it, and I just do whatever is comfortable/natural, which I suspect doesn't look like the good posture that the earlier bullet points in this list might sound like. but I suspect they're good starting points.) I want to emphasize that these things are preventative measures, and based on folk wisdom. It might be worthwhile to bring a workstation ergonomics expert through office proactively (after Covid), to look at the setups and practices of anyone who wants. And if anyone is already seeing symptoms, it's crucial that they not try to "work through the pain", because that can cause permanent damage. Including permanently no longer being able to type at all, and/or chronic pain. If you're having trouble, it's important to find a doctor who'll take it seriously, and then to take the doctor's directives seriously.
cannam 5y ago
You're not thinking of the types 4 or 6? They were both horrible sponges. The Type 5 is also a quiet rubber-dome-with-slider model, but pleasantly tactile with very high quality keycaps. (I'm fond of it, and so inclined to be defensive - in fact I'm using a Type 5c right now. It was my favourite among the 90s Unix vendors.)
- abeyer 5y ago
  yeah, I still have a 5 around for my 32 bit sparc machine... 4s were worse, and I dunno if I ever used a 6. The 5 is well built, great caps, looks pretty, interesting and mostly good layout... I just could never be happy with those domes, and it was a huge letdown. Plus RS/6000s came w/ a Model M, so clearly _not_ the best 90s unix keyboard. :P
Apocryphon 5y ago
Now their phones, on the other hand: https://twitter.com/NanoRaptor/status/1407275563077693445 https://twitter.com/NanoRaptor/status/1407275563077693445

by abeyer 5y ago

jeffrallen 5y ago

Sun optical mice were a pain in the ass too.

wyldfire 5y ago
The ones w the reflective metallic mousepad?
- abeyer 5y ago
  yup, and the marks were painted on, so started wearing off (and thus losing mouse resolution) the second you started using it.
  - hughrr 5y ago
    This thread brings me pleasant memories of drunken post student union bar C hacking sessions in the 90s. Apart from the mice. And openwindows. Fuck both of them!
    - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
      What's wrong with openwindows? Always like it.
  - chasil 5y ago
    This was a "Mouse Systems" design. Early mechanical mice commonly had a switch labeled PC/MS which would toggle the protocol used by the device. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems I own one somewhere in a closet.
adrianmonk 5y ago
Hey, I'm moving the mouse but the pointer isn't going much of anywhere! What's wrong?! Oh yeah, the mouse isn't CORRECTLY ALIGNED with the mouse pad! I'd better check if the mouse pad has moved out of its proper position on the desk. And pay a bit more attention to how I'm holding the mouse so that I don't introduce too much rotation about the vertical axis. That alignment was something I never had to worry about with any type of mouse I used before or after. On the other hand, it worked pretty well when it was lined up right. It really seemed to track motion more smoothly and accurately than mechanical mice. For those who don't understand why it had to be aligned, Wikipedia has an article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems) with two good photos. Mouse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Sun_optical_mouse.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Sun_... Close-up of grid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Mouse-Systems-Mousepad-Detail.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_Systems#/media/File:Mous...

neilv 5y ago

I don't know whether to blame the Type 4, something about our desks, or something in the water... but our entire development team were getting RSI problems, like I haven't heard of before or since. (Fortunately, there was chatter on the Internet about this problem at the time, and I learned the very simple workstation adjustments that worked for me. Ever since, I've been able to type like crazy, with no discomfort. To this day, I give everyone The Talk about typing RSI injuries, the set of usual culprits I know about, so you can adjust and see what works for you, and the absolute necessity of not working through typing pain. And if someone is noticing typing-related pain, they need to get a referral to a specialist(s), they need to keep on the specialist so they don't fall through the cracks, and they need to do what the specialist says.)

cyberpunk 5y ago
What were those very simple workspace adjustments? … asking for a friend…
- neilv 5y ago
  My understanding is that what works for a person varies, but here's some of the approx. dozen changes that I ended up making for myself (sorry have to be quick right now): * lower keyboard shelf so forearms could be parallel to ground. I've found many desks can be lowered. one place, I found the mount for the detachable commercial-grade desk legs matched that of some lower side table in our lab area; so, in a late-night operation, the table used for lunch catering trays got strangely taller, and I suddenly looked strangely taller next to my desk height. * wrists straight in line with forearms, as viewed from both side and from top. (I actually found my first-in-ages typing soreness briefly last year, when I used some laptop with a numeric keypad, and i realized that one of my hands was twisted to the side awkwardly to keep the screen centered. fortunately, that was only for a couple days, and i was able to switch back to a sane laptop * some people like wrist rests, but others say wrist rests encourage bad positions or pressure; i tried them then switched to without, but i suppose they might work for some people, and i don't know the research * both keyboard and monitor straight ahead of torso, not to one side * maybe eyes even with top of monitor (this advice might've been intended for 13-17" 4:3 CRTs, and I'm not really good about it) * arms should hang comfortably at sides. if I can't get a chair without armrests, usually they can be removed with a few bolts. * feet flat on the floor might've helped * some people benefit from typing breaks. and also from vision breaks, and stopping to focus on things in distance. i didn't seem to need either for any kind of discomfort (though I am a bit near-sighted, so maybe vision breaks would help) * stress seems to contribute * pressing simultaneous-multi-key combinations with the same hand, especially if stretching/twisting/straining the hand, is bad. one big thing I did with Emacs is switch from holding down Alt for Meta, to pressing and releasing Esc (except for Meta key combinations I might be pressing many times, like for undo or for incremental search, in which case I could hold down Al). I also tried to use other modifier keys with two hands -- one hand for the modifier, the other for the non-modifier. * there was some of talk about the RSI from switching hands back and forth between finding the mouse and finding home row. Also, Sun used this Mouse Systems mouse with an optical pad that has to be placed, rather than maybe the body naturally finding where a good area of travel for the mouse is. And the mouse buttons could've been easier to press. * The Sun keyboards also had a set of special function keys for things like copy&paste, and I don't know whether moving off home row to reach for those and then go back to find home row is a significant strain. * (Later on, I switched to Trackpoint keyboards, which let my fingers stay around home row, and requires only very slight movement and pressure. I vaguely recall first trying Trackpoint when in a very stressful situation, and i did get some soreness in my Trackpoint finger, IIRC, but it soon went away. I mentioned this to the Trackpoint inventor, and he seemed unsurprised, but maybe slightly sad that Trackpoint wasn't perfect in all ways. I suppose the newer designs of Trackpoint cap might also help, rather than the hard sandpaper one I was probably using at the time. Today, I put 15-year-old new-old-stock Trackpoint keyboards into 10-year-old Thinkpads as my primary workstation.) * (I also now have a "lectern" standing desk, $200 on Amazon, that fits a laptop, beverage coaster, and a small device like smartphone or embedded device. I never bother to adjust the height, but it's good to stand for chunks of time, and it can be moved around to wherever the light is good, view out the window, etc. Some partners and customers require videoconf apps that I don't trust on workstation, so those go on an iPad that gets put on a little arm clamped on back of the lectern as needed; and then the arm is mostly hidden when not in use, by clamping upside-down to the back of the lectern.) * (Today, I don't have to think about it, and I just do whatever is comfortable/natural, which I suspect doesn't look like the good posture that the earlier bullet points in this list might sound like. but I suspect they're good starting points.) I want to emphasize that these things are preventative measures, and based on folk wisdom. It might be worthwhile to bring a workstation ergonomics expert through office proactively (after Covid), to look at the setups and practices of anyone who wants. And if anyone is already seeing symptoms, it's crucial that they not try to "work through the pain", because that can cause permanent damage. Including permanently no longer being able to type at all, and/or chronic pain. If you're having trouble, it's important to find a doctor who'll take it seriously, and then to take the doctor's directives seriously.

cannam 5y ago

You're not thinking of the types 4 or 6? They were both horrible sponges. The Type 5 is also a quiet rubber-dome-with-slider model, but pleasantly tactile with very high quality keycaps. (I'm fond of it, and so inclined to be defensive - in fact I'm using a Type 5c right now. It was my favourite among the 90s Unix vendors.)

abeyer 5y ago
yeah, I still have a 5 around for my 32 bit sparc machine... 4s were worse, and I dunno if I ever used a 6. The 5 is well built, great caps, looks pretty, interesting and mostly good layout... I just could never be happy with those domes, and it was a huge letdown. Plus RS/6000s came w/ a Model M, so clearly _not_ the best 90s unix keyboard. :P

Apocryphon 5y ago

Now their phones, on the other hand: https://twitter.com/NanoRaptor/status/1407275563077693445 https://twitter.com/NanoRaptor/status/1407275563077693445