4 ms·

Firefox Cannot Be Trusted at the Hands of Today’s Mozilla Management

66 points by URfejk 5y ago

preinheimer 5y ago
We maintain an add-on for our customers. For a long time Firefox was where we did our development, and released first. Their process was quick & easy, and a lot less confusing to navigate than Chrome/Edge. Something on their end changed for which add-ons would require manual review. So a minor update (bug fixes, and a UI addition) has been in queue for review since June 22nd. We went from waiting hours to 6+ weeks at this point. There's plenty of frustrated people in their forums, but no real answers.
- cpeterso 5y ago
  I work on Mozilla's Firefox team. I asked the Add-ons team's community manager about your stalled review and they said that is very unusual. If you email me the details about your add-on (to my email address in my HN profile), I can pass them on. The Add-ons community manager said they think you might have posted on the Add-ons forums today about your stalled review. They will follow up in the forums.
nyx-aiur 5y ago
In the near future Firefox is just another Brave, Opera whatsoever. I am just curious how long some poor souls work their heart out in the engine room until the management inevitably forces the switch to chromium.
- luckylion 5y ago
  According to statcounter.com, Firefox is already on the level of Edge and Samsung Internet, with 3.45% market share globally. US: even slightly lower at 3.44%, down from 4.3% a year ago. Europe is still higher, Germany at 12%, France at 7%, but also falling rapidly. The future is now.
  - troyvit 5y ago
    Yeah and the future is a monolithic browser stack controlled by one one of the largest corporations in the world.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  Agreed. However, as you can tell from the downvotes, that will alienate a lot of people who believe that by using a Chromium fork, you're somehow giving over control of the web to Google. Which is ridiculous, as Google has lost control of the Chromium project due to Brave and Edge butting their ugly heads in. It's now the Linux kernel of web browsers. Prove me wrong.
- coldacid 5y ago
  I'm ready to just give up entirely on HTML/CSS/JS on HTTP when that happens. Fuck monocultures.
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    Yeah, every Linux distro is just terrible now because of the Linux kernel monoculture. Chromium is ~5 million lines of open source code. That's so unwieldy and impossible for anyone but Google or Microsoft to maintain right? Meanwhile the Linux kernel is ~28 million lines. Oh wait, there's also a Brave. Didn't they announce that they will not implement parts of Chromes manifest v3? Crazy how Google has so much control over open source code.
avmich 5y ago
Can Firefox be forked? It's buildable on various OSes, is it legally possible to pick up the codebase and keep working on it in the spirit of original Mozilla?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- PedroBatista 5y ago
  Yes, but the doe tho.. 99% of the time, it's not a technical problem.
- wmf 5y ago
  There are various Firefox forks already (the ones I'm aware of are for old OSes) but there aren't enough people to sustain them.
  - JPLeRouzic 5y ago
    When Firefox/phoenix was created, it was essentially by two people, Dave Hyatt and Blake Ross, isn't?
    - wmf 5y ago
      Firefox was based on the existing Mozilla codebase maintained by dozens or hundreds of engineers. Likewise, as long as Firefox is actively maintained by Mozilla it only takes 1-2 people to maintain a small fork. But if Mozilla goes out of business and Firefox becomes completely unmaintained all of the forks will also die.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gary_0 5y ago
  Depending on your definition of "fork", Firefox has been forked in cases like the Tor Browser or IceWeasel. But starting a completely separate organization that could keep its isolated Firefox fork competitive with Chromium would require a massive amount of resources. Mozilla employs hundreds of full-time engineers (although that number is declining).
mst 5y ago
Be warned that techrights is ... not always what one might call entirely reliable. They published a bunch of Andrew Lee apologia when the freenode debacle was in full swing. (and the whole "concerns are growing" thing is IMO a rhetorical dark pattern, even if I -do- worry for the future of my preferred browser)
- dralley 5y ago
  I'll take that one step further and say that they post total nonsense and speculation on a regular basis.
  - mst 5y ago
    I have only seen the Clown Prince Apologia posts. Admittedly they gave me a laugh while I was in the middle of helping cat herd the exodus to libera, but it was definitely a "laughing at" not a "laughing with".
    - dagsdgfhdgdj 5y ago
      Techrights also reposted the rather crazy ramblings from the page on the debian . community domain when that was going on. Seems like a page run by crazy people.
- slapfrog 5y ago
  Well I'm glad I listened to what he had to say before I came to the comments here to get discouraged. I've been using firefox since 2005, and hope to continue using firefox, but I have serious concerns about the way things are heading and this guy did a good job of articulating what I feel about it. Firefox is hemorrhaging users and if they don't change course, I fear I might become part of that trend.
troyvit 5y ago
I gotta say I read the article and it didn't make much sense. It seemed to make a lot of loosely connected accusations without any external evidence to back them up. I lasted three minutes into the video and heard just more of the same. I bet Mozilla does have a ton of problems. They're a non-profit that has been around forever and has more reputation and influence than its undersized user-base would imply. That's going to make it a weird organization. But before I would go so far as to believe that "Firefox cannot be trusted" I'd need to see some harder evidence.
Shadonototro 5y ago
i used to use Firefox and i was recommending it to everyone then they became lazy, refused to fix performance issues, and the salary of their CEO started to skyrocket then chrome came, and i uninstalled firefox and stopped recomanding it -- firefox is open source gone wrong, that's what happen when you factor in capitalism and try to profit from the free labor of benevolent
- PicassoCTs 5y ago
  Open Source Foundations should regularly die and be reborn in a competition of forks. While the foundation is not yet reborn, a base-staff should host a "stable" version until a new beloved, creature emerges and the foundation re-forms around it.
johnasmith 5y ago
It seems presumptuous to speculatively be outraged and it seems unfair to assume that because a person was once employed by Facebook, their efforts at Mozilla will be corruptive. Lets wait and see.
jmclnx 5y ago
Maybe, but what does that mean ? we trust Google and Chrome ? I still trust Firefox way more than Chrome, Edge, IE and maybe whatever Apple has (never used Apple). I really wish there was a browser that is not a pig, works very well and keeps things private.

66 points by URfejk 5y ago

We maintain an add-on for our customers. For a long time Firefox was where we did our development, and released first. Their process was quick & easy, and a lot less confusing to navigate than Chrome/Edge. Something on their end changed for which add-ons would require manual review. So a minor update (bug fixes, and a UI addition) has been in queue for review since June 22nd. We went from waiting hours to 6+ weeks at this point. There's plenty of frustrated people in their forums, but no real answers.

cpeterso 5y ago
I work on Mozilla's Firefox team. I asked the Add-ons team's community manager about your stalled review and they said that is very unusual. If you email me the details about your add-on (to my email address in my HN profile), I can pass them on. The Add-ons community manager said they think you might have posted on the Add-ons forums today about your stalled review. They will follow up in the forums.

nyx-aiur 5y ago

In the near future Firefox is just another Brave, Opera whatsoever. I am just curious how long some poor souls work their heart out in the engine room until the management inevitably forces the switch to chromium.

luckylion 5y ago
According to statcounter.com, Firefox is already on the level of Edge and Samsung Internet, with 3.45% market share globally. US: even slightly lower at 3.44%, down from 4.3% a year ago. Europe is still higher, Germany at 12%, France at 7%, but also falling rapidly. The future is now.
- troyvit 5y ago
  Yeah and the future is a monolithic browser stack controlled by one one of the largest corporations in the world.
phendrenad2 5y ago
Agreed. However, as you can tell from the downvotes, that will alienate a lot of people who believe that by using a Chromium fork, you're somehow giving over control of the web to Google. Which is ridiculous, as Google has lost control of the Chromium project due to Brave and Edge butting their ugly heads in. It's now the Linux kernel of web browsers. Prove me wrong.
coldacid 5y ago
I'm ready to just give up entirely on HTML/CSS/JS on HTTP when that happens. Fuck monocultures.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  Yeah, every Linux distro is just terrible now because of the Linux kernel monoculture. Chromium is ~5 million lines of open source code. That's so unwieldy and impossible for anyone but Google or Microsoft to maintain right? Meanwhile the Linux kernel is ~28 million lines. Oh wait, there's also a Brave. Didn't they announce that they will not implement parts of Chromes manifest v3? Crazy how Google has so much control over open source code.

avmich 5y ago

Can Firefox be forked? It's buildable on various OSes, is it legally possible to pick up the codebase and keep working on it in the spirit of original Mozilla?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
PedroBatista 5y ago
Yes, but the doe tho.. 99% of the time, it's not a technical problem.
wmf 5y ago
There are various Firefox forks already (the ones I'm aware of are for old OSes) but there aren't enough people to sustain them.
- JPLeRouzic 5y ago
  When Firefox/phoenix was created, it was essentially by two people, Dave Hyatt and Blake Ross, isn't?
  - wmf 5y ago
    Firefox was based on the existing Mozilla codebase maintained by dozens or hundreds of engineers. Likewise, as long as Firefox is actively maintained by Mozilla it only takes 1-2 people to maintain a small fork. But if Mozilla goes out of business and Firefox becomes completely unmaintained all of the forks will also die.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gary_0 5y ago
Depending on your definition of "fork", Firefox has been forked in cases like the Tor Browser or IceWeasel. But starting a completely separate organization that could keep its isolated Firefox fork competitive with Chromium would require a massive amount of resources. Mozilla employs hundreds of full-time engineers (although that number is declining).

mst 5y ago

Be warned that techrights is ... not always what one might call entirely reliable. They published a bunch of Andrew Lee apologia when the freenode debacle was in full swing. (and the whole "concerns are growing" thing is IMO a rhetorical dark pattern, even if I -do- worry for the future of my preferred browser)

dralley 5y ago
I'll take that one step further and say that they post total nonsense and speculation on a regular basis.
- mst 5y ago
  I have only seen the Clown Prince Apologia posts. Admittedly they gave me a laugh while I was in the middle of helping cat herd the exodus to libera, but it was definitely a "laughing at" not a "laughing with".
  - dagsdgfhdgdj 5y ago
    Techrights also reposted the rather crazy ramblings from the page on the debian . community domain when that was going on. Seems like a page run by crazy people.
slapfrog 5y ago
Well I'm glad I listened to what he had to say before I came to the comments here to get discouraged. I've been using firefox since 2005, and hope to continue using firefox, but I have serious concerns about the way things are heading and this guy did a good job of articulating what I feel about it. Firefox is hemorrhaging users and if they don't change course, I fear I might become part of that trend.

troyvit 5y ago

I gotta say I read the article and it didn't make much sense. It seemed to make a lot of loosely connected accusations without any external evidence to back them up. I lasted three minutes into the video and heard just more of the same. I bet Mozilla does have a ton of problems. They're a non-profit that has been around forever and has more reputation and influence than its undersized user-base would imply. That's going to make it a weird organization. But before I would go so far as to believe that "Firefox cannot be trusted" I'd need to see some harder evidence.

Shadonototro 5y ago

i used to use Firefox and i was recommending it to everyone then they became lazy, refused to fix performance issues, and the salary of their CEO started to skyrocket then chrome came, and i uninstalled firefox and stopped recomanding it -- firefox is open source gone wrong, that's what happen when you factor in capitalism and try to profit from the free labor of benevolent

PicassoCTs 5y ago
Open Source Foundations should regularly die and be reborn in a competition of forks. While the foundation is not yet reborn, a base-staff should host a "stable" version until a new beloved, creature emerges and the foundation re-forms around it.

johnasmith 5y ago

It seems presumptuous to speculatively be outraged and it seems unfair to assume that because a person was once employed by Facebook, their efforts at Mozilla will be corruptive. Lets wait and see.

jmclnx 5y ago

Maybe, but what does that mean ? we trust Google and Chrome ? I still trust Firefox way more than Chrome, Edge, IE and maybe whatever Apple has (never used Apple). I really wish there was a browser that is not a pig, works very well and keeps things private.