5 ms·

This could have happened anywhere in the world, the US is hardly unique.

by slackfan 5y ago

DecoPerson 5y ago
I have faith in a situation like this being far less likely to occur in Australia.
- zepto 5y ago
  Why? I see no reason to believe Australia’s social problems aren’t as bad as as the US.
- satori99 5y ago
  Don't be too sure. Very similar things have happened in Australia before, and no doubt will again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelia_Rau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelia_Rau
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/893326/imprisoning-the-innocent-the-causes-of-wrongful-convictions-in-australia https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/893326/imprisoning-th... There isn't a large Innocence Project (though a small one has popped up and should be supported) in Australia and there are overzealous prosecutors in Australia, just as in a lot of places (though the competition in America seems to be exceptionally strong). Faith is nice and all, but it doesn't free the innocent. There's a link to support Australia's innocence project, maybe tithe.
- hilbert42 5y ago
  It's not yet as bad but it's becoming more and more like the US every day. Australian politicians rarely create original law, they either ape laws from elsewhere or are forced into copying laws from the country they're trying to do trade deals with. Thus Australian law is becoming more and more like that of the US. For that matter, things won't improve in any anglophone country until they ditch the adversarial system for the inquisitorial one that has a better chance of getting to the truth of a case. But don't hold your breath, that won't happen anytime soon.
- drno123 5y ago
  With the current lockdown and incoming martial law, it seems that you already live in a dystopian universe.
- wil421 5y ago
  Here you go. IIRC Australia hasn’t been side kind to it’s Indigenous population. https://obriensolicitors.com.au/case-studies-unlawful-imprisonment-false-arrest/ https://obriensolicitors.com.au/case-studies-unlawful-impris...
pempem 5y ago
Then really its a global problem we need to figure out. Every day on HN we have debates about the trading of privacy for data for a more secure world. This is an indication that our efforts are broken, because people. But also that those people held a lot of different roles, in a diversity of offices across our judicial system.
SavantIdiot 5y ago
How can you possibly make such a claim with any supporting evidence that it could be "anywhere"? EDIT: Confused "anywhere" with "everywhere". I'll take my F in logic today and show myself out.
- TheFreim 5y ago
  Does someone need to provide a source proving that mistakes happen outside the United States?
- sophacles 5y ago
  Actually, I think your doubt needs some sources. The foundational principle is that there exists at least one of: * a human that has never once made any mistake whatsoever * a system composed of humans who are mistake capable but the system itself actually makes no mistakes. Such a thing seems impossible - if you can point to the existence of such a thing, your doubt is worth entertaining, otherwise it's just contrarianism.
tonyarkles 5y ago
Here's, among others, one of the absolutely wild examples from Canada: https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/202077E#a2-5 https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/Resear... Multiple people convicted by evidence provided by a quack of a doctor used as an Expert Witness by the crown.
tunesmith 5y ago
Therefore what? Bad thing happens in the US, yes that's true, but well, that same bad thing happens in other places too, so therefore.... what?
- staticman2 5y ago
  Don't get me wrong, i find this story outrageous, but whether our system is doing comparatively well or comparatively poor seems like useful empirical information. For one thing, if another country handles things better, that shows humans are capable of improving their system.
  - tunesmith 5y ago
    Ah yes, that does help. Too often I see people make statements like that and it just comes across as fatalistic, like an attempt to dissipate the will of others to do anything about it at all. I wonder what the other countries are that do better, and what they do differently. Maybe there should be a mandated evidence review every x years, irrespective of sentence.
- mucholove 5y ago
  I love this attitude. In life, so many people are happy to reference themselves to a very poor standard. For mang Dominicans, it’s OK in the case of Dominican Republic to be the third country in Latin America for so many statistic—automobile accidents, coronavirus deaths, you name it. This is unacceptable to me. Pick the highest bar—and if the highest bar isn’t good enough—set a new standard. Sure, we will have failures—but we need to push the envelope and do “good” not “better than worse”.
- ars 5y ago
  So therefore humans are humans. If it was unique you can point to what makes it unique - but if it happens everywhere, then it's because humans are humans. If you don't understand the source of the problem you have no change of fixing it.
ModernMech 5y ago
The US is definitely unique in that it confines the largest number people against their will in the world, in terms of both per capita and raw population numbers. That context cannot be lost when examining the cruelty of the system. It's obviously at an extreme end of the spectrum, so treating it like "any other country" doesn't hold up. The system is designed to target and exploit vulnerable, poor people and turn them into productive assets. Once it has them, getting them out can be incredibly difficult because they become so profitable. Our penal system is not designed for rehabilitation but for profit generation.
lozenge 5y ago
Here's one (sort of) from the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal Hundreds jailed or fined due to a faulty computer system blaming them - no other evidence - Post Office covered it up repeatedly - victims still not fully compensated.

This could have happened anywhere in the world, the US is hardly unique.

DecoPerson 5y ago

I have faith in a situation like this being far less likely to occur in Australia.

zepto 5y ago
Why? I see no reason to believe Australia’s social problems aren’t as bad as as the US.
satori99 5y ago
Don't be too sure. Very similar things have happened in Australia before, and no doubt will again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelia_Rau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelia_Rau
UnpossibleJim 5y ago
https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/893326/imprisoning-the-innocent-the-causes-of-wrongful-convictions-in-australia https://www.mondaq.com/australia/crime/893326/imprisoning-th... There isn't a large Innocence Project (though a small one has popped up and should be supported) in Australia and there are overzealous prosecutors in Australia, just as in a lot of places (though the competition in America seems to be exceptionally strong). Faith is nice and all, but it doesn't free the innocent. There's a link to support Australia's innocence project, maybe tithe.
hilbert42 5y ago
It's not yet as bad but it's becoming more and more like the US every day. Australian politicians rarely create original law, they either ape laws from elsewhere or are forced into copying laws from the country they're trying to do trade deals with. Thus Australian law is becoming more and more like that of the US. For that matter, things won't improve in any anglophone country until they ditch the adversarial system for the inquisitorial one that has a better chance of getting to the truth of a case. But don't hold your breath, that won't happen anytime soon.
drno123 5y ago
With the current lockdown and incoming martial law, it seems that you already live in a dystopian universe.
wil421 5y ago
Here you go. IIRC Australia hasn’t been side kind to it’s Indigenous population. https://obriensolicitors.com.au/case-studies-unlawful-imprisonment-false-arrest/ https://obriensolicitors.com.au/case-studies-unlawful-impris...

pempem 5y ago

Then really its a global problem we need to figure out. Every day on HN we have debates about the trading of privacy for data for a more secure world. This is an indication that our efforts are broken, because people. But also that those people held a lot of different roles, in a diversity of offices across our judicial system.

SavantIdiot 5y ago

How can you possibly make such a claim with any supporting evidence that it could be "anywhere"? EDIT: Confused "anywhere" with "everywhere". I'll take my F in logic today and show myself out.

TheFreim 5y ago
Does someone need to provide a source proving that mistakes happen outside the United States?
sophacles 5y ago
Actually, I think your doubt needs some sources. The foundational principle is that there exists at least one of: * a human that has never once made any mistake whatsoever * a system composed of humans who are mistake capable but the system itself actually makes no mistakes. Such a thing seems impossible - if you can point to the existence of such a thing, your doubt is worth entertaining, otherwise it's just contrarianism.

tonyarkles 5y ago

Here's, among others, one of the absolutely wild examples from Canada: https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/ResearchPublications/202077E#a2-5 https://lop.parl.ca/sites/PublicWebsite/default/en_CA/Resear... Multiple people convicted by evidence provided by a quack of a doctor used as an Expert Witness by the crown.

tunesmith 5y ago

Therefore what? Bad thing happens in the US, yes that's true, but well, that same bad thing happens in other places too, so therefore.... what?

staticman2 5y ago
Don't get me wrong, i find this story outrageous, but whether our system is doing comparatively well or comparatively poor seems like useful empirical information. For one thing, if another country handles things better, that shows humans are capable of improving their system.
- tunesmith 5y ago
  Ah yes, that does help. Too often I see people make statements like that and it just comes across as fatalistic, like an attempt to dissipate the will of others to do anything about it at all. I wonder what the other countries are that do better, and what they do differently. Maybe there should be a mandated evidence review every x years, irrespective of sentence.
mucholove 5y ago
I love this attitude. In life, so many people are happy to reference themselves to a very poor standard. For mang Dominicans, it’s OK in the case of Dominican Republic to be the third country in Latin America for so many statistic—automobile accidents, coronavirus deaths, you name it. This is unacceptable to me. Pick the highest bar—and if the highest bar isn’t good enough—set a new standard. Sure, we will have failures—but we need to push the envelope and do “good” not “better than worse”.
ars 5y ago
So therefore humans are humans. If it was unique you can point to what makes it unique - but if it happens everywhere, then it's because humans are humans. If you don't understand the source of the problem you have no change of fixing it.

ModernMech 5y ago

The US is definitely unique in that it confines the largest number people against their will in the world, in terms of both per capita and raw population numbers. That context cannot be lost when examining the cruelty of the system. It's obviously at an extreme end of the spectrum, so treating it like "any other country" doesn't hold up. The system is designed to target and exploit vulnerable, poor people and turn them into productive assets. Once it has them, getting them out can be incredibly difficult because they become so profitable. Our penal system is not designed for rehabilitation but for profit generation.

lozenge 5y ago

Here's one (sort of) from the UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Post_Office_scandal Hundreds jailed or fined due to a faulty computer system blaming them - no other evidence - Post Office covered it up repeatedly - victims still not fully compensated.