6 ms·

With respect, this comment is wrong in so many places. “High five figures” is not a lot of money considering the opportunity cost (and actual cost of a law degr

With respect, this comment is wrong in so many places. “High five figures” is not a lot of money considering the opportunity cost (and actual cost of a law degree) (7 years and likely $200,000 all in). The 1 in 4 figure is not close to right either—it’s typically fewer than 1 in 10 get the actually high paying jobs outside of t-14 schools. And I’m glad commenter likes the grind, but most lawyers that I’ve worked with over the years are miserable and drink too much, regardless of school and rank. Sounds like a serious case of survivor bias. This article is closer to reality: https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855?st=p68h16r8agolp4b&reflink=article_imessage_share https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal...

flavius29663 5y ago
I don't see how high 5 figures is not high salary. 100k is literally double the average salary for the US, and 3 times the median wage. And a lot of people earning the median are also deep in student debt. If earning 3 times the median is not good money, maybe your view of what "good money" means something else. The lawyer median wage is 125k, and the 75 percentile is 186k. I consider 186k to be a high wage, it's 6 times the national mean wage. And according to the sources below, 1 in 4 lawyers are above that. Median wages https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm Lawyer wages https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salary I am sorry, but I just don't see how the commenter above is wrong, the numbers say he is spot on. But anyway, I am not a lawyer, and I am not trying to be disrespectful, but I see a lot of high earners in many fields that complain having small wages and tough life, but when you compare it from the outside, it doesn't look so bad. For example, the guy in your article: said Dylan Boigris, a 2016 Miami Law graduate, who began his career making about $45,000 as a public defender Making 50% more than the median right out of college, I would say that is pretty good, don't you think? And he is a low percentile, because in your article: Graduates who finished law school in 2019 earned a median $72,500 the following year, Then your article goes to show earning vs debt on a graph. I think it's quite an expectation to have your annual earning cover the cost of the entire law degree...and then bemoan when it doesn't. How many other professions have this luxury?
- xphilter 5y ago
  The vast majority of folks earning “high five figures” don’t have to waste three years on dubious education at a cost of $50k per year (not including debt for living expenses because you can’t work your first year at all). So you’re right, high five figures could be a great salary if you’re a manager of a target and didn’t go to law school, but it’s a bad salary if you had to go to law school to get it.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Source?
  - junipertea 5y ago
    There are a lot of people with 4 year graduate degrees (with same cost) that earn less.
    - xphilter 5y ago
      Right. And those are bad too.
- Retric 5y ago
  Lumping your comparison to include people without high school degrees with lawyers is making a huge mistake. At a minimum the comparison should be between collage graduates and lawyers minus the opportunity cost of law school. Consider, when comparing starting salary your accountant or whatever not only makes money in both years a lawyer is in law school they also likely have two raises before the lawyer gets his first paycheck and start paying back undergrad loans while a lawyer is still adding interest and new debt. If your opportunity cost from loans, tuition, lost wages and delayed carrier advancement adds up to a conservative 10k/year after taxes for the rest of your life, then your 72k pre tax lawyer is actually making the equivalent of ~58k pre tax and 1/2 of starting Layers are doing worse than that.
  - soperj 5y ago
    not everyone who's a lawyer can be an accountant and vice versa.
sandworm101 5y ago
For perspective: https://www.federalpay.org/military/army https://www.federalpay.org/military/army Army Captain. Someone with a degree and a few years in the job. Someone in command of perhaps 50 people. A federal employee. The sort of person who most Americans would consider solidly middle class. Base monthly pay = $6,023
- ghaff 5y ago
  There is a contingent in tech (and probably other areas like Wall Street) that is absolutely delusional about what most people consider comfortable middle class--or even upper middle class--salaries.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    Those same people probably disagree about an army captain being middle class. Some would say that any public employee short of a presidential appointment is per se something below middle class. The average congressman or senator, the people on TV making all the decisions, are paid 175k/year. The president is paid 400k. Such people normally have other private income streams but that is the base pay. So anyone talking about "low six figures" as "middle class" really needs to take their head out of the sand.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    It's either regional differences where people pretend that the exception is the rule [0] or rich people pretend to be "middle class" because that way the middle class will vote for the benefits of rich people. [0] I can't afford a $2 million house, therefore I am not middle class if don't earn at least $200k.
- draebek 5y ago
  I have not served, but my sense is that there are some additional factors at play: * If you are deployed, I believe there may be some tax advantages? * You may get combat pay * Don't you still get a pension? And free/subsidized healthcare, even after you leave? * Does a captain typically pay for housing? All that said, your point is taken. However, I'm not sure anyone is joining the US Army to get rich.

flavius29663 5y ago

I don't see how high 5 figures is not high salary. 100k is literally double the average salary for the US, and 3 times the median wage. And a lot of people earning the median are also deep in student debt. If earning 3 times the median is not good money, maybe your view of what "good money" means something else. The lawyer median wage is 125k, and the 75 percentile is 186k. I consider 186k to be a high wage, it's 6 times the national mean wage. And according to the sources below, 1 in 4 lawyers are above that. Median wages https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm Lawyer wages https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/lawyer/salary I am sorry, but I just don't see how the commenter above is wrong, the numbers say he is spot on. But anyway, I am not a lawyer, and I am not trying to be disrespectful, but I see a lot of high earners in many fields that complain having small wages and tough life, but when you compare it from the outside, it doesn't look so bad. For example, the guy in your article: said Dylan Boigris, a 2016 Miami Law graduate, who began his career making about $45,000 as a public defender Making 50% more than the median right out of college, I would say that is pretty good, don't you think? And he is a low percentile, because in your article: Graduates who finished law school in 2019 earned a median $72,500 the following year, Then your article goes to show earning vs debt on a graph. I think it's quite an expectation to have your annual earning cover the cost of the entire law degree...and then bemoan when it doesn't. How many other professions have this luxury?

xphilter 5y ago
The vast majority of folks earning “high five figures” don’t have to waste three years on dubious education at a cost of $50k per year (not including debt for living expenses because you can’t work your first year at all). So you’re right, high five figures could be a great salary if you’re a manager of a target and didn’t go to law school, but it’s a bad salary if you had to go to law school to get it.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Source?
- junipertea 5y ago
  There are a lot of people with 4 year graduate degrees (with same cost) that earn less.
  - xphilter 5y ago
    Right. And those are bad too.
Retric 5y ago
Lumping your comparison to include people without high school degrees with lawyers is making a huge mistake. At a minimum the comparison should be between collage graduates and lawyers minus the opportunity cost of law school. Consider, when comparing starting salary your accountant or whatever not only makes money in both years a lawyer is in law school they also likely have two raises before the lawyer gets his first paycheck and start paying back undergrad loans while a lawyer is still adding interest and new debt. If your opportunity cost from loans, tuition, lost wages and delayed carrier advancement adds up to a conservative 10k/year after taxes for the rest of your life, then your 72k pre tax lawyer is actually making the equivalent of ~58k pre tax and 1/2 of starting Layers are doing worse than that.
- soperj 5y ago
  not everyone who's a lawyer can be an accountant and vice versa.

sandworm101 5y ago

For perspective: https://www.federalpay.org/military/army https://www.federalpay.org/military/army Army Captain. Someone with a degree and a few years in the job. Someone in command of perhaps 50 people. A federal employee. The sort of person who most Americans would consider solidly middle class. Base monthly pay = $6,023

ghaff 5y ago
There is a contingent in tech (and probably other areas like Wall Street) that is absolutely delusional about what most people consider comfortable middle class--or even upper middle class--salaries.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Those same people probably disagree about an army captain being middle class. Some would say that any public employee short of a presidential appointment is per se something below middle class. The average congressman or senator, the people on TV making all the decisions, are paid 175k/year. The president is paid 400k. Such people normally have other private income streams but that is the base pay. So anyone talking about "low six figures" as "middle class" really needs to take their head out of the sand.
- imtringued 5y ago
  It's either regional differences where people pretend that the exception is the rule [0] or rich people pretend to be "middle class" because that way the middle class will vote for the benefits of rich people. [0] I can't afford a $2 million house, therefore I am not middle class if don't earn at least $200k.
draebek 5y ago
I have not served, but my sense is that there are some additional factors at play: * If you are deployed, I believe there may be some tax advantages? * You may get combat pay * Don't you still get a pension? And free/subsidized healthcare, even after you leave? * Does a captain typically pay for housing? All that said, your point is taken. However, I'm not sure anyone is joining the US Army to get rich.