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Yes. It is important that more developers stand up to this kind of bullying. Apple needs to respect developers more and, if it wants them to integrate Apple ser

Yes. It is important that more developers stand up to this kind of bullying. Apple needs to respect developers more and, if it wants them to integrate Apple services they should instead offer incentives rather than threats to them. As both a developer and an Apple user, I don't care about Apple ID and so why would I wish to waste my precious time adding features I am not interested in? (I use Apple products but I never use Apple ID anywhere because I believe it weakens my privacy - why would I want to share more personal data with Apple, a company that was part of PRISM and used to sell user data to the government?)

sbuk 5y ago
Equally, developers need to respect their users. I don't want to have to have a Facebook or Google account to use your product. Why should I be interested in your app if you force me you use either of those options? They were also involved in PRISM and both have far worse track records with privacy than Apple. More importantly, why should I trust you with PII?
- collaborative 5y ago
  Having your email address boils down to password recovery. For instance, I only ever send 3 types of emails: 1 - Activation email with activation code to ensure the person actually owns the email address (non-OAUTH sign-up) 2 - Password recovery for when they have forgotten their password. Yes, a user doesn't need this with OAUTH but sometimes they will have forgotten that they used OAUTH to start with and need to sign in with email & pss 3 - When push is turned off and someone has messaged you I don't think this is beyond reasonable but I'm willing to take criticism
  - sbuk 5y ago
    There are other ways to do password recovery. Email is categorically not the only solution to this problem.
    - collaborative 5y ago
      You mean "secret questions" or phone number?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - qwytw 5y ago
    The messages sent to the "anonymous" Apple id mail are just forwarded to the user's inbox, aren't they? How is that any different from any other email address.
    - jackson1442 5y ago
      There is an email origin restriction- that's how they keep devs from selling them, emails can only come from the right domain. That still shouldn't be a problem though.
    - collaborative 5y ago
      It isn't. My problem with AppleID is nothing more than that they forced AppleID on me. I would have voluntarily added it otherwise. But now because of this, I really really dislike it to the point that I will refuse to implement it in other platforms where it is not mandatory And I think Apple's behavior should change so I am making this public
      - haswell 5y ago
        Asking an honest question: if Apple didn’t force this, would you really add this voluntarily? Because this response tells me you’re willing to compromise your user’s experience because of your personal issues with Apple. As a user, this does not give me confidence in your decision making. It’s somewhat understandable to be annoyed, even angry at Apple. But the moment you decide to pass that on to your users is the moment you’ve forgotten the most important humans in this story. Of course, it’s your right to do what you want, and if that means taking a stance against Apple ranks higher than your user base, I suppose that’s your prerogative. But that definitely would make me hesitate to use the app.
        collaborative 5y ago
        Honest answer: yes I don't even hold a grudge against Apple. This is just me trying to make the world a better place. It's in everyone's interest that Apple doesn't gain authority to force us to do things (don't forget, devs also are Apple customers)
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    It should also be mentioned that email doesn't generally provide any information. hobgoblin33@ussr.ru doesn't carry much info.
    - hombre_fatal 5y ago
      You're underestimating email. People reuse their email address, so it's not as benign as you think. Just googling someone's email is a start. But worse actors can find your email on a combolist or figure out what other services you use. Just knowing someone's email is the first step to social engineering a customer service backdoor, for example. AppleID specifically helps users avoid all this with trivial per-app email address generation, and that's something our tools should have given us a decade ago.
  - p2t2p 5y ago
    > Having your email address boils down to password recovery. For instance, I only ever send 3 types of emails I don't care. I don't trust you. I don't trust any of modern devs, I see every other new shiny crap on the internet only as an attempt to extort me of data and/or money (subscription) now. Before Apple introduced that feature I was using email aliases in my Fastmail. Need to register in new service - go to Fastmail, generate an alias for some weird domain they've got, setup filter for it to go to "dodgy" folder and then register. Now I don't need to do that anymore, Apple automated that for me. And thank's Apple it also forced guys like you to allow me to use that automation. At least on their platform. For same reason the only way I buy a subscription is through an in-app-purchase - because I can just to go App Store and cancel it and don't need to deal with people like you. I remember like an year ago I was waiting for a refund for a cancelled subscription and my emails were ignored and the only way to get the attention was to open a dispute in PayPal. Yet another supplier-hostile but consumer-friendly company. Thanks god they exist.
    - handrous 5y ago
      I think some smaller-time devs don't appreciate that if they "win" against Apple and make them significantly loosen restrictions, users' wallets will tighten, especially for small developers and companies that no-one's heard of. Keeping the App Store low-friction, low-risk, and UX consistent, is a huge benefit for those kinds of devs (the ones selling software or subscriptions, anyway).
- webmobdev 5y ago
  Yes, developers need to respect users too. But that should be between the developers and the user. If a user asks me to add Apple Id as an option in an app I make, that is something that I would seriously consider as I care about my users. Why should a developer care about something no user has requested but Apple is forcing them to use? Apple could be considered a genuine neutral arbitrator if it didn't take money from both the developers and its users. What it has done instead is to force itself between the user and the developer, and exploiting both in the name of the users (developers lose money to Apple's extortion, and the money it extorts from the developers is ultimately passed to the user, and thus they end up exploited too).
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    It doesn't work like that. Users can't ask about options they don't know about. And even if they do, too many developers couldn't give two shits. Great example is how users overwhelmingly opt-out of tracking when the OS warns them about it (because "developers thinking about users" never even considered not tracking)
  - handrous 5y ago
    Who forced you to write an iOS app and release it on the App Store? This whole thread is bizarre.
    - webmobdev 5y ago
      The bizarre thing is the ignorance here that this whole thing is a matter of choice! I am glad that there are developers who recognize that they do not have to accept unfair, and even unethical, practices from corporates. And are willing to speak about it and fight it. Like minded developers are not just fighting Apple, but the whole attempt by "big tech" to move to the business model of exploiting developers by controlling distribution of softwares, and dictating terms that favour them. This ends up harming both developers, as they earn less, and users, as ultimately it the user who ends up paying the share of profits that Apple (and others) extort from the developers.
      - 5y ago

sbuk 5y ago

Equally, developers need to respect their users. I don't want to have to have a Facebook or Google account to use your product. Why should I be interested in your app if you force me you use either of those options? They were also involved in PRISM and both have far worse track records with privacy than Apple. More importantly, why should I trust you with PII?

collaborative 5y ago
Having your email address boils down to password recovery. For instance, I only ever send 3 types of emails: 1 - Activation email with activation code to ensure the person actually owns the email address (non-OAUTH sign-up) 2 - Password recovery for when they have forgotten their password. Yes, a user doesn't need this with OAUTH but sometimes they will have forgotten that they used OAUTH to start with and need to sign in with email & pss 3 - When push is turned off and someone has messaged you I don't think this is beyond reasonable but I'm willing to take criticism
- sbuk 5y ago
  There are other ways to do password recovery. Email is categorically not the only solution to this problem.
  - collaborative 5y ago
    You mean "secret questions" or phone number?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- qwytw 5y ago
  The messages sent to the "anonymous" Apple id mail are just forwarded to the user's inbox, aren't they? How is that any different from any other email address.
  - jackson1442 5y ago
    There is an email origin restriction- that's how they keep devs from selling them, emails can only come from the right domain. That still shouldn't be a problem though.
  - collaborative 5y ago
    It isn't. My problem with AppleID is nothing more than that they forced AppleID on me. I would have voluntarily added it otherwise. But now because of this, I really really dislike it to the point that I will refuse to implement it in other platforms where it is not mandatory And I think Apple's behavior should change so I am making this public
    - haswell 5y ago
      Asking an honest question: if Apple didn’t force this, would you really add this voluntarily? Because this response tells me you’re willing to compromise your user’s experience because of your personal issues with Apple. As a user, this does not give me confidence in your decision making. It’s somewhat understandable to be annoyed, even angry at Apple. But the moment you decide to pass that on to your users is the moment you’ve forgotten the most important humans in this story. Of course, it’s your right to do what you want, and if that means taking a stance against Apple ranks higher than your user base, I suppose that’s your prerogative. But that definitely would make me hesitate to use the app.
      - collaborative 5y ago
        Honest answer: yes I don't even hold a grudge against Apple. This is just me trying to make the world a better place. It's in everyone's interest that Apple doesn't gain authority to force us to do things (don't forget, devs also are Apple customers)
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  It should also be mentioned that email doesn't generally provide any information. hobgoblin33@ussr.ru doesn't carry much info.
  - hombre_fatal 5y ago
    You're underestimating email. People reuse their email address, so it's not as benign as you think. Just googling someone's email is a start. But worse actors can find your email on a combolist or figure out what other services you use. Just knowing someone's email is the first step to social engineering a customer service backdoor, for example. AppleID specifically helps users avoid all this with trivial per-app email address generation, and that's something our tools should have given us a decade ago.
- p2t2p 5y ago
  > Having your email address boils down to password recovery. For instance, I only ever send 3 types of emails I don't care. I don't trust you. I don't trust any of modern devs, I see every other new shiny crap on the internet only as an attempt to extort me of data and/or money (subscription) now. Before Apple introduced that feature I was using email aliases in my Fastmail. Need to register in new service - go to Fastmail, generate an alias for some weird domain they've got, setup filter for it to go to "dodgy" folder and then register. Now I don't need to do that anymore, Apple automated that for me. And thank's Apple it also forced guys like you to allow me to use that automation. At least on their platform. For same reason the only way I buy a subscription is through an in-app-purchase - because I can just to go App Store and cancel it and don't need to deal with people like you. I remember like an year ago I was waiting for a refund for a cancelled subscription and my emails were ignored and the only way to get the attention was to open a dispute in PayPal. Yet another supplier-hostile but consumer-friendly company. Thanks god they exist.
  - handrous 5y ago
    I think some smaller-time devs don't appreciate that if they "win" against Apple and make them significantly loosen restrictions, users' wallets will tighten, especially for small developers and companies that no-one's heard of. Keeping the App Store low-friction, low-risk, and UX consistent, is a huge benefit for those kinds of devs (the ones selling software or subscriptions, anyway).
webmobdev 5y ago
Yes, developers need to respect users too. But that should be between the developers and the user. If a user asks me to add Apple Id as an option in an app I make, that is something that I would seriously consider as I care about my users. Why should a developer care about something no user has requested but Apple is forcing them to use? Apple could be considered a genuine neutral arbitrator if it didn't take money from both the developers and its users. What it has done instead is to force itself between the user and the developer, and exploiting both in the name of the users (developers lose money to Apple's extortion, and the money it extorts from the developers is ultimately passed to the user, and thus they end up exploited too).
- dmitriid 5y ago
  It doesn't work like that. Users can't ask about options they don't know about. And even if they do, too many developers couldn't give two shits. Great example is how users overwhelmingly opt-out of tracking when the OS warns them about it (because "developers thinking about users" never even considered not tracking)
- handrous 5y ago
  Who forced you to write an iOS app and release it on the App Store? This whole thread is bizarre.
  - webmobdev 5y ago
    The bizarre thing is the ignorance here that this whole thing is a matter of choice! I am glad that there are developers who recognize that they do not have to accept unfair, and even unethical, practices from corporates. And are willing to speak about it and fight it. Like minded developers are not just fighting Apple, but the whole attempt by "big tech" to move to the business model of exploiting developers by controlling distribution of softwares, and dictating terms that favour them. This ends up harming both developers, as they earn less, and users, as ultimately it the user who ends up paying the share of profits that Apple (and others) extort from the developers.
    - 5y ago