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Well, many people have had issues with unions creating an environment where most employees 'soldier' (work slowly and uncreatively), by protecting the unproduct

by nickff 5y ago

Well, many people have had issues with unions creating an environment where most employees 'soldier' (work slowly and uncreatively), by protecting the unproductive, and preventing the productive from being rewarded. Another issue is that unions seem to 'strangle' marginal, unprotected (by tariff) industries; they drive up the employer's costs, which can kill a business if prices can not be adjusted to compensate (because of foreign competition). In cases where domestic companies are protected, the unions tend to try acting as a cartel and raising the whole industry's cost structure (e.g. auto manufacturing 1940-1970). Lastly, unions have been known to use violence and intimidation, generally in one-on-one situations (against managers and anti-union employees) rather than the large scale that the Pinkertons (and the like) were known for.

ggm 5y ago
"preventing the productive from being rewarded" plays strongly to the Amazon model of competitive warehouse labour. I get what you're saying but this also is a reflection of what piece rate, and "fire the bottom 10%" does to the nature of work. The strangling of marginal industries: Yes, I also see this. The problem is that around 2 in 3 startups and small enterprises fail, and oftentimes, amongst the losers are unpaid workers. Small companies starting on unrealistic expectations need to balance asking workers to do "more" for "less" and meeting legal minimums. If the employer really only worked off their family labour, and had no basis to hire for pay, then has the union really been the reason for failure, or just the trigger? It could have been the public health board, the bank, or any of the other creditors: If the cost of labour was the sole reason, then there's something to talk about here but it goes to the VC funding, and where money flows in small enterprise. The last one, Look I get get, I know these things happen. They happen in construction labour, wharfside labour, in the print unions in the UK (News Ltd 1970s)_and coal mining. They don't seem to happen in garment work, in office work, clerical, health, banking, ICT. It's not a charactersistic of unions per se, as of .. a generation of specific unions, in physically intense labour, or protecting a very small circuit of rights. The wharfies basically lost. Intermodal carriers won. The miners lost. Construction labour unions usually lose in the longer run. Gang infestation of construction unions in Australia has been a huge problem, and mega-union mergers fed this to some extent. I don't have "rebuttal" to what you say. Except to note, Those are not predominant features of what unionisation "is" worldwide. This isn't the experience of unions in most of Europe, or Asia.
- dantheman 5y ago
  Look at what public sector unions have done in the US - they protect the work and harm the citizen. They fight school choice, fight to keep terrible laws, protect police from any accountability, and that doesn't even begin to describe the damage they're doing the civic finances through unfunded pension liabilities.
  - ggm 5y ago
    Sorry? you blame the union for the unfunded pension liability? How can that be the unions fault? I'm not in America, I can't speak to what influence the union has in the civil service. This is simply not my experience of unions in Britain or Australia. The reverse in fact.
  - verall 5y ago
    Police unions are an abberration, but teachers are treated much better and schools are higher quality in States with real teachers unions. My southern state had a teacher's union, but since the law forbids teachers from collective bargaining, I'm not sure it counts.
dalbasal 5y ago
>> the unions tend to try acting as a cartel At least on this, the calculus may change if the company is a monopoly or cartel.
cycomanic 5y ago
> Well, many people have had issues with unions creating an environment where most employees 'soldier' (work slowly and uncreatively), by protecting the unproductive, and preventing the productive from being rewarded. > Another issue is that unions seem to 'strangle' marginal, unprotected (by tariff) industries; they drive up the employer's costs, which can kill a business if prices can not be adjusted to compensate (because of foreign competition). In cases where domestic companies are protected, the unions tend to try acting as a cartel and raising the whole industry's cost structure (e.g. auto manufacturing 1940-1970). Regarding the question of raising the industries cost structure, isn't this the same as software engineers currently asking for very high salaries? Why should workers not use their bargening power to negotiate higher salaries? > Lastly, unions have been known to use violence and intimidation, generally in one-on-one situations (against managers and anti-union employees) rather than the large scale that the Pinkertons (and the like) were known for. So what is your take on corporations?
bjourne 5y ago
> Well, many people have had issues with unions creating an environment where most employees 'soldier' (work slowly and uncreatively), by protecting the unproductive, and preventing the productive from being rewarded. What union has prevented an employer from raising an employees salary? I find it hard to believe that any union has ever done that. > In cases where domestic companies are protected, the unions tend to try acting as a cartel and raising the whole industry's cost structure (e.g. auto manufacturing 1940-1970). Germany has much stronger unions than the US. Especially in the automotive industry and German car makers doesn't seem to be doing that badly.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  Almost every collective bargaining agreement precludes any employee being rewarded beyond its terms.

by nickff 5y ago

ggm 5y ago

"preventing the productive from being rewarded" plays strongly to the Amazon model of competitive warehouse labour. I get what you're saying but this also is a reflection of what piece rate, and "fire the bottom 10%" does to the nature of work. The strangling of marginal industries: Yes, I also see this. The problem is that around 2 in 3 startups and small enterprises fail, and oftentimes, amongst the losers are unpaid workers. Small companies starting on unrealistic expectations need to balance asking workers to do "more" for "less" and meeting legal minimums. If the employer really only worked off their family labour, and had no basis to hire for pay, then has the union really been the reason for failure, or just the trigger? It could have been the public health board, the bank, or any of the other creditors: If the cost of labour was the sole reason, then there's something to talk about here but it goes to the VC funding, and where money flows in small enterprise. The last one, Look I get get, I know these things happen. They happen in construction labour, wharfside labour, in the print unions in the UK (News Ltd 1970s)_and coal mining. They don't seem to happen in garment work, in office work, clerical, health, banking, ICT. It's not a charactersistic of unions per se, as of .. a generation of specific unions, in physically intense labour, or protecting a very small circuit of rights. The wharfies basically lost. Intermodal carriers won. The miners lost. Construction labour unions usually lose in the longer run. Gang infestation of construction unions in Australia has been a huge problem, and mega-union mergers fed this to some extent. I don't have "rebuttal" to what you say. Except to note, Those are not predominant features of what unionisation "is" worldwide. This isn't the experience of unions in most of Europe, or Asia.

dantheman 5y ago
Look at what public sector unions have done in the US - they protect the work and harm the citizen. They fight school choice, fight to keep terrible laws, protect police from any accountability, and that doesn't even begin to describe the damage they're doing the civic finances through unfunded pension liabilities.
- ggm 5y ago
  Sorry? you blame the union for the unfunded pension liability? How can that be the unions fault? I'm not in America, I can't speak to what influence the union has in the civil service. This is simply not my experience of unions in Britain or Australia. The reverse in fact.
- verall 5y ago
  Police unions are an abberration, but teachers are treated much better and schools are higher quality in States with real teachers unions. My southern state had a teacher's union, but since the law forbids teachers from collective bargaining, I'm not sure it counts.

dalbasal 5y ago

>> the unions tend to try acting as a cartel At least on this, the calculus may change if the company is a monopoly or cartel.

cycomanic 5y ago

> Well, many people have had issues with unions creating an environment where most employees 'soldier' (work slowly and uncreatively), by protecting the unproductive, and preventing the productive from being rewarded. > Another issue is that unions seem to 'strangle' marginal, unprotected (by tariff) industries; they drive up the employer's costs, which can kill a business if prices can not be adjusted to compensate (because of foreign competition). In cases where domestic companies are protected, the unions tend to try acting as a cartel and raising the whole industry's cost structure (e.g. auto manufacturing 1940-1970). Regarding the question of raising the industries cost structure, isn't this the same as software engineers currently asking for very high salaries? Why should workers not use their bargening power to negotiate higher salaries? > Lastly, unions have been known to use violence and intimidation, generally in one-on-one situations (against managers and anti-union employees) rather than the large scale that the Pinkertons (and the like) were known for. So what is your take on corporations?

bjourne 5y ago

> Well, many people have had issues with unions creating an environment where most employees 'soldier' (work slowly and uncreatively), by protecting the unproductive, and preventing the productive from being rewarded. What union has prevented an employer from raising an employees salary? I find it hard to believe that any union has ever done that. > In cases where domestic companies are protected, the unions tend to try acting as a cartel and raising the whole industry's cost structure (e.g. auto manufacturing 1940-1970). Germany has much stronger unions than the US. Especially in the automotive industry and German car makers doesn't seem to be doing that badly.

1123581321 5y ago
Almost every collective bargaining agreement precludes any employee being rewarded beyond its terms.