4 ms·

By this logic, shouldn't Europe be growing at much faster rates than the US? Their social services are more extensive, I believe the minimum wage is higher, and

by jdhn 5y ago

By this logic, shouldn't Europe be growing at much faster rates than the US? Their social services are more extensive, I believe the minimum wage is higher, and they spend more on infrastructure.

pjc50 5y ago
The EU imposes strict fiscal discipline. That basically prevents the possibility of taking advantage of Keynsian fiscal expansion. In other words, to the extent that greater spending causes growth, it's cancelled out by the matching taxes that reduce growth. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/fiscal/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/fiscal/html/index.en.htm... > Compliance with this rule is to be examined on the basis of reference values for the general government deficit (3%) and gross debt (60%) in relation to GDP, whereby a number of qualifications can be applied. The simple key to understanding what can and cannot be done with printing money is to understand that you can redirect activity inside the country almost at will by printing, a pseudo command economy; but you can't print (a) foreign currency or (b) oil, steel, vaccines, or other constraints of physical production. Worked example? If you print money and the citizens spend it on imported goods, that depreciates the currency and is usually Bad. Currency depreciation against hard currency (USD) usually shows up as inflation. Weimar prints money to buy up domestic gold to ship to France for reparations => hyperinflation. Zimbabwe prints money but is unable to subsidize kerosene in shops at any price because the country doesn't export enough value to import fossil fuels => hyperinflation. US prints money for domestic stimulus while being oil producer and having labour slack and a generation of anti-wage-rise policy => almost nothing happens except asset inflation.
- tbihl 5y ago
  What in the US economy isn't inflated? The only thing I can think of in my life is utilities. Everyone knows housing has gone way up. As I go about trying to do work on my house, it's very clear that the price of getting work done when you want it is not what it was in 2019, because I pay those same prices in order to be in a line. I haven't needed anything enough to figure out what the price of prompt work is. Food prices have gone up. Cars have increased in price significantly.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    > What in the US economy isn't inflated? wages in many circumstance, though growth in low-skill labor wages from supply shortage we are seeing the same as other supply shock from corona.
nradov 5y ago
Europe is a big place. There are huge variations in social services, minimum wages, and infrastructure spending. In general though building infrastructure is more expensive in the US. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/why-we-cant-figure-out-why-infrastructure-is-so-expensive.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/why-we-cant-figure-o...
throw0101a 5y ago
> Their social services are more extensive, I believe the minimum wage is higher, and they spend more on infrastructure. They have to spend on top of what they already do, because the current level is the baseline and is generally priced into market expectations. As the original article is about Germany, in 2020 they had their first budget deficit in a decade: * https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-pushes-germany-to-first-deficit-in-nearly-a-decade-schwarze-null/ https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-pushes-germany-t... To put it bluntly: the Germans don't spend s--t.
- da_big_ghey 5y ago
  Germany tax burden on consumption is over 18% against less then 7% in America: https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2017/382 https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2... A first deficit meaning Germany spend ordinarily all that and then also more. This is showing Germany spend significantely more for economy size. Evidence is in need for supporting an idea that only spending above and beyond usual have an effect on markets.
  - stuaxo 5y ago
    This is not like-with-like. Spending on health should be lumped in with taxes to get a real picture.
    - da_big_ghey 5y ago
      Disagree, not all German health spending are in that figure. We have different social program as well that might cause change in figure, so such argument make any comparison meaningless.
- WanderPanda 5y ago
  Public spending in Germany is about the same as in the US, no deficit needed, because taxes are so damn high. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governm...

by jdhn 5y ago

By this logic, shouldn't Europe be growing at much faster rates than the US? Their social services are more extensive, I believe the minimum wage is higher, and they spend more on infrastructure.

pjc50 5y ago

The EU imposes strict fiscal discipline. That basically prevents the possibility of taking advantage of Keynsian fiscal expansion. In other words, to the extent that greater spending causes growth, it's cancelled out by the matching taxes that reduce growth. https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/fiscal/html/index.en.html https://www.ecb.europa.eu/mopo/eaec/fiscal/html/index.en.htm... > Compliance with this rule is to be examined on the basis of reference values for the general government deficit (3%) and gross debt (60%) in relation to GDP, whereby a number of qualifications can be applied. The simple key to understanding what can and cannot be done with printing money is to understand that you can redirect activity inside the country almost at will by printing, a pseudo command economy; but you can't print (a) foreign currency or (b) oil, steel, vaccines, or other constraints of physical production. Worked example? If you print money and the citizens spend it on imported goods, that depreciates the currency and is usually Bad. Currency depreciation against hard currency (USD) usually shows up as inflation. Weimar prints money to buy up domestic gold to ship to France for reparations => hyperinflation. Zimbabwe prints money but is unable to subsidize kerosene in shops at any price because the country doesn't export enough value to import fossil fuels => hyperinflation. US prints money for domestic stimulus while being oil producer and having labour slack and a generation of anti-wage-rise policy => almost nothing happens except asset inflation.

tbihl 5y ago
What in the US economy isn't inflated? The only thing I can think of in my life is utilities. Everyone knows housing has gone way up. As I go about trying to do work on my house, it's very clear that the price of getting work done when you want it is not what it was in 2019, because I pay those same prices in order to be in a line. I haven't needed anything enough to figure out what the price of prompt work is. Food prices have gone up. Cars have increased in price significantly.
- da_big_ghey 5y ago
  > What in the US economy isn't inflated? wages in many circumstance, though growth in low-skill labor wages from supply shortage we are seeing the same as other supply shock from corona.

nradov 5y ago

Europe is a big place. There are huge variations in social services, minimum wages, and infrastructure spending. In general though building infrastructure is more expensive in the US. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/why-we-cant-figure-out-why-infrastructure-is-so-expensive.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/why-we-cant-figure-o...

throw0101a 5y ago

> Their social services are more extensive, I believe the minimum wage is higher, and they spend more on infrastructure. They have to spend on top of what they already do, because the current level is the baseline and is generally priced into market expectations. As the original article is about Germany, in 2020 they had their first budget deficit in a decade: * https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-pushes-germany-to-first-deficit-in-nearly-a-decade-schwarze-null/ https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-pushes-germany-t... To put it bluntly: the Germans don't spend s--t.

da_big_ghey 5y ago
Germany tax burden on consumption is over 18% against less then 7% in America: https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2017/382 https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2... A first deficit meaning Germany spend ordinarily all that and then also more. This is showing Germany spend significantely more for economy size. Evidence is in need for supporting an idea that only spending above and beyond usual have an effect on markets.
- stuaxo 5y ago
  This is not like-with-like. Spending on health should be lumped in with taxes to get a real picture.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    Disagree, not all German health spending are in that figure. We have different social program as well that might cause change in figure, so such argument make any comparison meaningless.
WanderPanda 5y ago
Public spending in Germany is about the same as in the US, no deficit needed, because taxes are so damn high. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget_per_capita https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_governm...