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My wife is South Korean so I'm biased. But I've been to Japan and South Korea and if you're looking for one of the most modern nations in the world, I strongly
by eatonphil 5y ago
My wife is South Korean so I'm biased. But I've been to Japan and South Korea and if you're looking for one of the most modern nations in the world, I strongly recommend you go to Korea. The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark.
In contrast, the US and Japan seem to be somewhat falling apart with a peak in infrastructure and buildings a few decades ago. It's not that bad of course but relative to countries like South Korea and the Netherlands I think you'll agree.
Also, in my experience Korea was way more ready to handle English speakers than Japan was. I was surprised how I felt so lost in Japan not being able to read or speak Japanese. (Of course I don't expect to go to another country and be catered to. It's just that I was spoiled by Korea. And I wanted to address any reasonable concern that Japan might be friendlier for tourists than Korea.) In contrast in Korea there was a lot already in English and all the service workers I met spoke English well.
- totoglazer 5y agoHaving visited all the countries mentioned within the last few years - definitely agree. Seoul is an incredible, modern city, unlike any other. Tokyo largely feels like it was frozen in time. Parts of Amsterdam have that sort of feel, but it’s definitely more mixed. Not crumbling, but old and making do since it’s fine.
- alephnan 5y ago> Tokyo largely feels like it was frozen in time. Economically, Japan has been in stagnation since the late 80s.
- ekianjo 5y ago> stagnating That's a nice way to put it, it's been actually decreasing clearly over time since 1989, with ups and downs on the way: https://mebfaber.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/japan.jpg https://mebfaber.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/japan.jpg
- JumpCrisscross 5y agoWhat is the y axis?
- zuminator 5y agoThat chart is a crude snapshot of the Nikkei 225 from 1990 to 2009. Since then it's rebounded by quite a bit although it's still quite a bit under its Dec 1989 peak. But of course a stock market index isn't the full economy, so I would disagree that this chart by itself constitutes proof that Japan is stagnating. Chart source: https://mebfaber.com/2009/12/20/japan-the-us-and-the-lost-decades/ https://mebfaber.com/2009/12/20/japan-the-us-and-the-lost-de...
- yorwba 5y agoEconomically, Japan's GDP per capita (measured in 2010 US$) was 39,240 in 1991 and grew to 49,000 in 2019, a 25% increase. Yes, it's slower growth than before, but slow growth is still growth, not stagnation. For comparison, New Zealand was at 38,345 in 2019: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2020&locations=JP-NZ-KR https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?end=2020... (also threw in the graph for South Korea)
- Clewza313 5y agoDuring that time the USD has suffered around 88% inflation measures by CPI, so in real terms that implies they're going backwards.
- spfzero 5y agoThat's inflation in US prices. It may not be transferrable to another country, where various things cost more/less, and rise/fall differently through the years.
- oezi 5y agoWhen my parents went to Japan in the eighties they were shocked that coffee in Tokyo was 4 times as expensive as in Germany. When I visited in 2016 I was similarly shocked that a vending machine Coca Cola costs half of what it costs in Germany. Japan's deflation has led the country to be very affordable.
- pehtis 5y agoIt has been in stagnation since the 80s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades_(Japan) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades_(Japan)
- fleddr 5y agoI don't think Amsterdam is what is meant by the Netherlands. Amsterdam is basically a super old village built in a swamp that it interesting for its history, architecture, culture, and so on. Or for the red light district and weed shops, if you prefer that. It's not a display of infrastructure. The Netherlands has some of the best developed infrastructure nation-wide: roads, railways, and most famously its massive water management systems, as half the country is below sea level. It is also very well developed economically (punching far above its tiny weight), technically, and socially (hybrid welfare system). By comparison, many parts of the US feel like a 3rd world country.
- _RPL5_ 5y ago"well developed economically (punching far above its tiny weight)" I am being a nitpicker here, but I think there is no correlation between country size and level of economic development. Many of the richest polities in the world are quite small. Places like Singapore & HK come to mind. I think bigger countries, even if they are "1st world," can sometimes look rather rough, because there is a lot of variation between different regions / municipalities / neighborhoods. It can be surreal sometimes, but it is what it is.
- fleddr 5y agoI should perhaps clarify that it's not just the level of economic development, rather specifically it's scale. For example, would you expect the Netherlands, smaller than a typical US state, to be the world's #2 food exporter? From a tiny country that is also extremely densely populated? To produce a number of mega corporations like Unilever, Shell (partly dutch), Philips, Heineken, the like...and this doesn't even begin to describe lesser known companies in extremely heavy transport, water management, mega scale infrastructure. Combined with the extremely favorable location of being a distribution hub (Rotterdam), indeed similar to Singapore. So I basically agree, it doesn't require a large country to produce a lot of economic output. Yet I'd still say the food export fact is a crazy one, as you would expect that to very much be surface-related.
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- Razengan 5y agoMost modern how? Is everything just recently built or actually designed with modern principles in mind that will still feel relevant a decade down the road? I’m no researcher of any thing but the casual impression I’ve gotten from reading here and there over the years is that South Korea has plenty of problems, social and otherwise, and some of them pretty archaic and morbid (like idols collapsing on stage but nobody helping them)
- eatonphil 5y agoThe trains running in the subways are much newer, cleaner, and wider than the ones in NYC or Tokyo or Paris or London (based on my own observation). They also continually build out entirely new rapid lines like the Bundang express line which takes you from a suburb of Seoul to the center of Gangnam (a major district) in 15 minutes. Their buildings are also mostly new. It seems like every decade or two Koreans demolish older buildings and replace them with new ones. Whereas the US and Japan seem more often to keep old buildings around for much longer (and don't clean them). The cars on the street in Seoul were also newer than the ones I saw in Japan (although similar in age to NYC). For example the taxis in Japan look like 80s BMWs. They look very cool for that reason but also seem pretty old. Finally in Japan there's a lot still done by cash and weird single-purpose ticket machines. It would be a hardware hackers dream because of the variety and number of ticketing machines everywhere. But in contrast Korea has gone almost totally cashless everywhere or so it seems. You just "tap" with your phone. The US is getting there, and maybe Japan is now too since it's been a few years since I was last there. I wrote a bit more about this a while ago (and included pics) here: https://notes.eatonphil.com/on-nyc-tokyo-and-seoul.html https://notes.eatonphil.com/on-nyc-tokyo-and-seoul.html.
- alephnan 5y ago> The trains running in the subways are much newer, cleaner, and wider than the ones in NYC or Tokyo or Paris or London (based on my own observation). One of the complaints I had from my SK friend is that other subway platforms don't have safety walls > Finally in Japan there's a lot still done by cash and weird single-purpose ticket machines. It would be a hardware hackers dream because of the variety and number of ticketing machines everywhere. Are they connected to the internet?
- odiroot 5y ago> My wife is South Korean so I'm biased. But I've been to Japan and South Korea and if you're looking for one of the most modern nations in the world, I strongly recommend you go to Korea. The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark. Have you been to Singapore?
- eatonphil 5y agoNo I have not but I agree this would probably make the list. Maybe some of the Gulf city-states too but I haven't explored them very much.
- alephnan 5y agoSingapore has 1/10th the population of South Korea, and 1/20th the population of Japan. Singapore has less than 1% of South Korea's land mass, which is 25% of Japan. It's not a fair comparison on the scale of the infrastructure.
- someperson 5y agoSouth Korea, Taiwan, and China all developed their infrastructure relatively recently, so it makes sense that their skyscrapers and subway systems are gleaming. Fast forward 50 years (once the demographic collapse has fully hit Asia and Europe), and we'll see if their infrastructure continues to be so modern.
- eatonphil 5y agoYes but compared to Japan? All of Asia started from scratch after WW2 and Korea was only 10 years behind Japan due to their war. But Tokyo infrastructure felt basically as old as NYC infrastructure to me (a totally qualitative impression). That said, Tokyo is massively cleaner and nicer than NYC even if some of the infrastructure seems old. There is no question it is nicer than NYC.
- Danieru 5y ago> But Tokyo infrastructure felt basically as old as NYC infrastructure to me In part because it is, most of Tokyo's major subway lines were built in the 1960s to 1970s. Ginza line was built before WW1 and was the first subway in Asia. The highways were all built soon after the war too. Thus part of the issue is age. Japan stabilized much sooner than Korea and built up faster. A bigger component though is Japan's preference to build new then let sit. Maintenance for visual reasons is rare. Thus combined with the high humidity stuff rusts and molds. You can see rust on iron beams waiting at the JR platform in Shibuya! Literal rust on one of the most high traffic stations in the world with gleaming skyscrappers as your backdrop. In part Japan feels like a retired country. All the heavy lifting has been done. The mortgage paid. I joke with friends we are young people in an old country. Everything around us is going into the night, and we are just now waking up. I like it, but I can see why others would prefer a newer country.
- eatonphil 5y agoThanks for the perspective! I also don't mean to say one is better or worse. I think Tokyo, Seoul, and NYC are awesome. I've lived in NYC for the past 5 years and it's by far my favorite city in the US.
- ekianjo 5y ago> Also, in my experience Korea was way more ready to handle English speakers than Japan was. One of the key problems is that Japan has a huge domestic market and does not 'need' English to survive. Korea, on the other hand, is a lot more dependent on its external connections and a push for better English proficiency makes a lot of sense.
- Clewza313 5y agoI felt the same way about Japan when I first visited it in the late 1990s. Japan has stagnated badly since then, and due to the demographic crunch, it's essentially certain that Seoul in 2040 will look like Tokyo in 2020. (Unless North Korea transforms it into a smoking crater in the ground, that is, since the entire city is within artillery range of the border.) Also, in my experience, Koreans speak even less English than the Japanese do. Seoul is still OK, maybe Busan, but out in the sticks there's zero signage and very few speakers.
- eatonphil 5y agoNot to discount your experience at all, but I have been outside of Seoul too and I still didn't feel too overwhelmed. Specifically I spent a bit of time in Bundang (a suburb of Seoul), Busan and Jeju. One more massive advantage Korean has over Japanese is that Korean has a fairly simple alphabet so you can read and pronounce words after only a little practice. In contrast, it takes quite a while to be able to read Japanese with their three writing systems and Kanji in particular.
- Aperocky 5y ago> In contrast, it takes quite a while to be able to read Japanese with their three writing systems and Kanji in particular. On the other hand, if you can read Chinese.. then reading signage in Japan is like having half Chinese half weird squiggly stuff but the Chinese half would still mostly make out most of the sense.
- toephu2 5y ago> The only comparable country I've been to is the Netherlands or maybe Denmark. I guess you've never been to China?
- eatonphil 5y agoI have not.
- keykoo 5y agoI'm sorta surprised by your statement. I've lived in Seoul, Tokyo, and NYC for various periods of my life and I'd definitely say Tokyo feels the most "modern" when you scratch beneath the surface. For example, I'd say the basic subway system between Seoul and Tokyo are pretty similar but you also have the advantage of a vastly superior rail network that serves Greater Tokyo and the rest of Japan. KTX and SRT in Korea are improving every year but don't really compare yet. Additionally, the new subway stations in Seoul are quite nice (Line #9) but you also have really old lines (Line #1) where many of the stations are so badly maintained they feel inferior to their counterparts in Tokyo (Ginza, Hibiya). I can't really speak to the english speaking issues in South Korea, but in Tokyo I never really had any issues even though I don't speak Japanese. Most places in Tokyo will have english menus because it's a tourist centric city. Neighborhood family owned dives probably don't speak english very well but they wouldn't in Seoul either. The thing that makes Seoul fall short for me is the standard of building maintenance. Although things are changing, it was generally the case that for several generations of building maintenance they just expected to tear them down and rebuild. Tokyo has a similar problem, necessitated by constant building damage and updated building codes from earthquakes, but the biggest difference is that a lot of these buildings in Seoul are 10+ stories tall. Most of Tokyo's building stock is <10 stories. It's become cost prohibitive in Seoul to actually tear these buildings down and rebuild them. One of the worst things for me is how car centric Seoul is. It's rare in Tokyo to have 3+ lane roads that aren't toll road/expressways. They're all over Seoul and the side roads are packed full of "valet" parking for restaurants that don't actually have parking lots. The entire car culture feels way more chaotic there than Tokyo. In Tokyo, you can't buy a car unless you prove you have a registered parking spot. In Seoul, you just double park your neighbor and put your phone number in case you need to move your car. Lastly the air quality in Seoul is way worse than Tokyo. Feels like you constantly have to stay indoors for weeks during the bad "yellow dust" season.
- eatonphil 5y agoUpvoted for the opposing observations. I have taken KTX but I have not taken (non-subway) rail in Japan. The KTX train I took was similar in quality to German inter-city rail or American regional rail lines. That is to say, it wasn't that special. The air quality issues are a huge pain for sure.
- davidjytang 5y agoChina and Taiwan had been compared a lot. China's cities look much newer than Taiwan cities. But people's general way of carrying themselves differs a lot. Technological advances also varies. If your "modern country" means "modern buildings", then I can agree. But if you're saying people, culture, art, technology of South Korea is more "modern" than other countries, I would disagree.
- audunw 5y ago> Also, in my experience Korea was way more ready to handle English speakers than Japan was. In Seoul yes, but not necessarily other places, in my experience. I had really confusing experience trying to sleep over in a spa in Busan. The only English phrase we got out of them was "Robot steal your phone". Admittedly this is not a place tourists would generally go though. We got recommended doing it by Korean friends and our hostel host in Seoul helped us find the place. In Japan I experienced a few times that a Japanese person that could speak english would come over to help me if I was staring at something (map, ATM machine) in confusion for a while. Didn't experience that in South Korea even though I stayed there longer. I agree that South Korea feels extremely modern.. but not much less than Japan. I wonder if it has something to do with how recently the infrastructure was built. Maybe South Korea is just at that perfect stage now where nothing is too old, and yet they've managed to improve/refurbish almost everything. I've noticed Taiwan is a mixed bag. Some places feels insanely modern, while there's still big areas with a lot of old construction. But then those areas tends to be the ones with the most charm and the best night markets.