7 ms·

Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.

nindalf 5y ago
It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.
detcader 5y ago
Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    > How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? It's not. It's equally despicable.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.
      - JohnFen 5y ago
        I can't speak to HN (although it seems to me that spy tools are more in line with HN areas of interest than arms sales), but if you haven't noticed that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia (and other nations) were major news stories, then I can't help you. Because they absolutely have been, and likely will continue to be. Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.
  - cheif-lama 5y ago
    How naive, Do you think these dictators represent their people? Even the simple semantics can't make that allowance. These dictators are the reason Israel is protected, and both Israel and America spend billions plus to ensure they remain in power. This elusive enmity, that can spring back in eyeblink, is created by Israel, it was not there for thousands of year. In fact, if it was not for Muslims there won't be Jews today. Zinosts know that and they know how to manuveur Americans, who else can explain this better than Netanyahu himself: https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 Quickly read it because I have gut feeling my freedom of speech is going to get revoked soon. https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209 https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I think it should be different. I don't think people should expect Israel to start because it is one of the few countries that doesn't just sell arms for profit, but for specific strategic interests. If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Israel had such a relationship with the Saudis for a while, it just wasn't public.
ohashi 5y ago
It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  > Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel That could happen regardless of what Israel does. I mean if the U.S or EU decides that Israel is a colonial entity like Apartheid SA, that's not going to be because some Israeli cyber startup selling a tool. The hard left doesn't really care what Israel does now, the very idea of Israel of Israel existing is a cross between colonialism and white privilege to them. But in the mean time Israel gain actual strategic relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that mean a lot.
- radycov 5y ago
  No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    Could it be that some politicians actually agree Israel should exist?
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely. In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.
cheif-lama 5y ago
Well since Israel is always touted as most moral army, and beacon of democracy (recently it is now being touted as Jewish democracy) in the middle east amidst Western sponsored dictators. It is wrong from moral point of view. If shooting children (about 7 in last 3 or 4 weeks, check out https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/ not a Palestinian website) and uprooting trees does not bother them, I doubt this will bother Israeli leadership or their mouth pieces. Issue is that it is not sustainable.Yes, you can buy these dictators and appease them, but tell your masses they hate our freedoms than that issue is not something you should close your eyes too. It is an undeniable fact that, Israel and sponsorship of these dictators is the single reason 9/11 happened. I hope this explanation can register with you.

nindalf 5y ago

It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.

detcader 5y ago

Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.

joelbluminator 5y ago
Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  > How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? It's not. It's equally despicable.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.
    - JohnFen 5y ago
      I can't speak to HN (although it seems to me that spy tools are more in line with HN areas of interest than arms sales), but if you haven't noticed that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia (and other nations) were major news stories, then I can't help you. Because they absolutely have been, and likely will continue to be. Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.
- cheif-lama 5y ago
  How naive, Do you think these dictators represent their people? Even the simple semantics can't make that allowance. These dictators are the reason Israel is protected, and both Israel and America spend billions plus to ensure they remain in power. This elusive enmity, that can spring back in eyeblink, is created by Israel, it was not there for thousands of year. In fact, if it was not for Muslims there won't be Jews today. Zinosts know that and they know how to manuveur Americans, who else can explain this better than Netanyahu himself: https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 Quickly read it because I have gut feeling my freedom of speech is going to get revoked soon. https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209 https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209
raxxorrax 5y ago
I think it should be different. I don't think people should expect Israel to start because it is one of the few countries that doesn't just sell arms for profit, but for specific strategic interests. If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.

sudosysgen 5y ago

Israel had such a relationship with the Saudis for a while, it just wasn't public.

ohashi 5y ago

It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.

joelbluminator 5y ago
> Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel That could happen regardless of what Israel does. I mean if the U.S or EU decides that Israel is a colonial entity like Apartheid SA, that's not going to be because some Israeli cyber startup selling a tool. The hard left doesn't really care what Israel does now, the very idea of Israel of Israel existing is a cross between colonialism and white privilege to them. But in the mean time Israel gain actual strategic relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that mean a lot.
radycov 5y ago
No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Could it be that some politicians actually agree Israel should exist?
- nebula8804 5y ago
  A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely. In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.

cheif-lama 5y ago

Well since Israel is always touted as most moral army, and beacon of democracy (recently it is now being touted as Jewish democracy) in the middle east amidst Western sponsored dictators. It is wrong from moral point of view. If shooting children (about 7 in last 3 or 4 weeks, check out https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/ not a Palestinian website) and uprooting trees does not bother them, I doubt this will bother Israeli leadership or their mouth pieces. Issue is that it is not sustainable.Yes, you can buy these dictators and appease them, but tell your masses they hate our freedoms than that issue is not something you should close your eyes too. It is an undeniable fact that, Israel and sponsorship of these dictators is the single reason 9/11 happened. I hope this explanation can register with you.