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I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”. This

I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”. This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a great way to start and maintain friendships - provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power. Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on but the news cycle will move on soon, while Saudi and UAE will remain staunch allies. MBS still loves them because Khashoggi remains dead. Israel would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for the meddling kids at Amnesty International.

joelbluminator 5y ago
Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.
- nindalf 5y ago
  It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.
- detcader 5y ago
  Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.
    - JohnFen 5y ago
      > How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? It's not. It's equally despicable.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.
        JohnFen 5y ago
        I can't speak to HN (although it seems to me that spy tools are more in line with HN areas of interest than arms sales), but if you haven't noticed that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia (and other nations) were major news stories, then I can't help you. Because they absolutely have been, and likely will continue to be. Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.
    - cheif-lama 5y ago
      How naive, Do you think these dictators represent their people? Even the simple semantics can't make that allowance. These dictators are the reason Israel is protected, and both Israel and America spend billions plus to ensure they remain in power. This elusive enmity, that can spring back in eyeblink, is created by Israel, it was not there for thousands of year. In fact, if it was not for Muslims there won't be Jews today. Zinosts know that and they know how to manuveur Americans, who else can explain this better than Netanyahu himself: https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 Quickly read it because I have gut feeling my freedom of speech is going to get revoked soon. https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209 https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    I think it should be different. I don't think people should expect Israel to start because it is one of the few countries that doesn't just sell arms for profit, but for specific strategic interests. If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Israel had such a relationship with the Saudis for a while, it just wasn't public.
- ohashi 5y ago
  It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    > Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel That could happen regardless of what Israel does. I mean if the U.S or EU decides that Israel is a colonial entity like Apartheid SA, that's not going to be because some Israeli cyber startup selling a tool. The hard left doesn't really care what Israel does now, the very idea of Israel of Israel existing is a cross between colonialism and white privilege to them. But in the mean time Israel gain actual strategic relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that mean a lot.
  - radycov 5y ago
    No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      Could it be that some politicians actually agree Israel should exist?
    - nebula8804 5y ago
      A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely. In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.
- cheif-lama 5y ago
  Well since Israel is always touted as most moral army, and beacon of democracy (recently it is now being touted as Jewish democracy) in the middle east amidst Western sponsored dictators. It is wrong from moral point of view. If shooting children (about 7 in last 3 or 4 weeks, check out https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/ not a Palestinian website) and uprooting trees does not bother them, I doubt this will bother Israeli leadership or their mouth pieces. Issue is that it is not sustainable.Yes, you can buy these dictators and appease them, but tell your masses they hate our freedoms than that issue is not something you should close your eyes too. It is an undeniable fact that, Israel and sponsorship of these dictators is the single reason 9/11 happened. I hope this explanation can register with you.
raxxorrax 5y ago
> Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it basically got its weapons for defense on the black market. So scrutinizing questionable defense contracts is a weak accusation, especially since all other countries do sell weapons to regimes as well. What you are really criticizing is the success. Making that clear might not really helpful, but is factual.
- nindalf 5y ago
  > What you are really criticising I wasn’t criticising them at all. I was merely pointing out where their interests and incentives lie.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Sorry, it wasn't meant as an objection. Didn't mean you with 'you'.
- PhasmaFelis 5y ago
  > I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. And all of them should be called out, every time. "But those guys get away with it" isn't a defense.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    That is a valid argument against unethical behavior but again, this isn't valid for the reality of arms sales. It would be better if that weren't the case, but it isn't. And the place to start is always your own government because here you are responsible and have the ability to enact change. Your government will try to move you to point fingers at other country. Exactly like you do here. What the Russians do isn't an argument...
rbanffy 5y ago
> provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power. That and also have backdoors into their clients' intelligence gathering. Knowing who is a good potential enemy of a state is always handy.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  Some of the "incidentally collected" intelligence may be more valuable to Israeli intelligence than it is to Morocco, say, a Macron text with his opinion on the JCPA, or what he knows about a mysterious explosion at an Iranian nuclear facility. They have plausible deniability in that a client state performed the targeting, with a "private company" executing, and the are shocked to learn of this spying and "need to get to the bottom of it". Having a hot mic on a world leader 24/7, and being able to blame someone else for it is invaluable.

joelbluminator 5y ago

Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.

nindalf 5y ago
It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.
detcader 5y ago
Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    > How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? It's not. It's equally despicable.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.
      - JohnFen 5y ago
        I can't speak to HN (although it seems to me that spy tools are more in line with HN areas of interest than arms sales), but if you haven't noticed that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia (and other nations) were major news stories, then I can't help you. Because they absolutely have been, and likely will continue to be. Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.
  - cheif-lama 5y ago
    How naive, Do you think these dictators represent their people? Even the simple semantics can't make that allowance. These dictators are the reason Israel is protected, and both Israel and America spend billions plus to ensure they remain in power. This elusive enmity, that can spring back in eyeblink, is created by Israel, it was not there for thousands of year. In fact, if it was not for Muslims there won't be Jews today. Zinosts know that and they know how to manuveur Americans, who else can explain this better than Netanyahu himself: https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178 Quickly read it because I have gut feeling my freedom of speech is going to get revoked soon. https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209 https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I think it should be different. I don't think people should expect Israel to start because it is one of the few countries that doesn't just sell arms for profit, but for specific strategic interests. If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.
sudosysgen 5y ago
Israel had such a relationship with the Saudis for a while, it just wasn't public.
ohashi 5y ago
It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  > Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel That could happen regardless of what Israel does. I mean if the U.S or EU decides that Israel is a colonial entity like Apartheid SA, that's not going to be because some Israeli cyber startup selling a tool. The hard left doesn't really care what Israel does now, the very idea of Israel of Israel existing is a cross between colonialism and white privilege to them. But in the mean time Israel gain actual strategic relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that mean a lot.
- radycov 5y ago
  No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    Could it be that some politicians actually agree Israel should exist?
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely. In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.
cheif-lama 5y ago
Well since Israel is always touted as most moral army, and beacon of democracy (recently it is now being touted as Jewish democracy) in the middle east amidst Western sponsored dictators. It is wrong from moral point of view. If shooting children (about 7 in last 3 or 4 weeks, check out https://www.btselem.org/ https://www.btselem.org/ not a Palestinian website) and uprooting trees does not bother them, I doubt this will bother Israeli leadership or their mouth pieces. Issue is that it is not sustainable.Yes, you can buy these dictators and appease them, but tell your masses they hate our freedoms than that issue is not something you should close your eyes too. It is an undeniable fact that, Israel and sponsorship of these dictators is the single reason 9/11 happened. I hope this explanation can register with you.

raxxorrax 5y ago

> Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it basically got its weapons for defense on the black market. So scrutinizing questionable defense contracts is a weak accusation, especially since all other countries do sell weapons to regimes as well. What you are really criticizing is the success. Making that clear might not really helpful, but is factual.

nindalf 5y ago
> What you are really criticising I wasn’t criticising them at all. I was merely pointing out where their interests and incentives lie.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Sorry, it wasn't meant as an objection. Didn't mean you with 'you'.
PhasmaFelis 5y ago
> I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. And all of them should be called out, every time. "But those guys get away with it" isn't a defense.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  That is a valid argument against unethical behavior but again, this isn't valid for the reality of arms sales. It would be better if that weren't the case, but it isn't. And the place to start is always your own government because here you are responsible and have the ability to enact change. Your government will try to move you to point fingers at other country. Exactly like you do here. What the Russians do isn't an argument...

rbanffy 5y ago

> provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power. That and also have backdoors into their clients' intelligence gathering. Knowing who is a good potential enemy of a state is always handy.

sangnoir 5y ago
Some of the "incidentally collected" intelligence may be more valuable to Israeli intelligence than it is to Morocco, say, a Macron text with his opinion on the JCPA, or what he knows about a mysterious explosion at an Iranian nuclear facility. They have plausible deniability in that a client state performed the targeting, with a "private company" executing, and the are shocked to learn of this spying and "need to get to the bottom of it". Having a hot mic on a world leader 24/7, and being able to blame someone else for it is invaluable.