9 ms·

Tesla big battery fire under control after burning more than three days

94 points by mikro2nd 5y ago

pbronez 5y ago
Energy storage is hard. We'll need to iterate firefighting techniques to handle large batteries, just like we need to work on third-party repair for BEV and battery recycling programs. Fortunately these are all relatively straightforward engineering problems... small steps towards the sustainable future we must invent to survive as a species.
- noja 5y ago
  > We'll need to iterate firefighting techniques to handle large batteries Are there any firefighting techniques in use for handling car-size batteries?
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    Absolutely! The state of the art is to have a container, fill it with water, and put the car in. You then wait a week or two. For installations like this one which just burned down the answer is mostly: Don't let it catch fire! And if it does catch fire, make sure that you built it with large enough gaps between each unit that the fire can't spread, because you're not putting it out.
    - algo_trader 5y ago
      Also, maybe "dont use tricky NMC batteries for stationary storage, when LFT can be cheaper and safer". Still, hypothetically, can you use a (large) hose to fill a burning MegaPack container with water to cool it down? Maybe possible shorts in the other pods will make things worse?
      - johnsimer 5y ago
        LFP*?
    - martin_a 5y ago
      > The state of the art is to have a container, fill it with water, and put the car in. You then wait a week or two. As a firefighter I can confirm this. What worries me though is, that this might work well for cars, but what about batteries in homes, like Tesla powerwall and alike? We do not yet have any plans for those, you can't "easily" attach them to a crane and lift them into a container. They are built in basements, garages and more. This will become challenging in the future...
- pyrale 5y ago
  These are also all negative externalities at this point. Even straightforward engineering problems need funding to get engineers assigned to them.
- letitbeirie 5y ago
  Intrinsically safe energy storage is an oxymoron. The objective is storing large amounts of energy to be released slowly over time - if there exists any possibility whatsoever of imperfect containment, there is (by definition) some probability that it will fail and release that energy all at once. Can they be made to fail safely? Sure. Can they be made to never fail? Not for what anyone's willing to pay for them.
  - foxyv 5y ago
    Lithium batteries store about 0.5 MJ/kg. Compared to the specific energy of burning lithium metal (40 MJ/kg) the energy from the electricity producing redox reaction is pretty low. In the case of lithium batteries. Our problem isn't the stored electric energy, it's the medium being a highly flammable alkaline metal. If we could somehow store that 0.5 MJ/kg in a non-flammable medium with similar energy density it would have 5% the specific energy of a similarly massing piece of hardwood.
    - letitbeirie 5y ago
      Oh damn, TIL. You'd still have the issue of the stored energy in a non-flammable medium, but that 80x energy multiplier makes the problem distinct from any other energy storage I can think of. That's like keeping your diesel in a tank made entirely out of dynamite.
  - foxpurple 5y ago
    A candle stick has 100x the energy of a stick of TNT. I know which one I would rather be driving a truck full of. Energy density is not the main danger factor.
Renaud 5y ago
I wish we had better fire protection against these batteries. As we're ramping up production and large packs become ubiquitous, in cars, factories, houses, we're really ill-equipped to combat their nasty tendency to burst into flames that are basically impossible to extinguish. These things will burn if they fall below their minimal voltage, they will burn if you over-charge them, they will burn if you overheat them, they will burn if you constrain them too much, they will burn if you stab or mechanically stress them.... No fire services in the world appear to be equipped to put out those fires. At this stage, I'm wouldn't be surprised of some large-scale catastrophe brought by a defective cell in a larger pack somewhere.
- api 5y ago
  We learned how to very safely handle big tanks of extremely flammable fluids with explosive volatile vapors. We also learned how to deal with a system that pipes extremely explosive flammable gas into millions of homes, and outlets with high voltage electricity everywhere. We'll learn how to handle these too. Nothing capable of powering modern society or transport is going to be made of unicorn glitter. Stored energy is stored energy and there are always dangers with it. I am curious if Tesla's batteries have had more fire issues or if they're just reported more because it's Tesla and that makes it click bait.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I think a bit of both. Tesla is right at the edge of the current capabilities in terms of storage density so it is kind of logical that they would be the ones to find out the hard way what the real physical limits are with respect to handling and safety, and they are also the system that is the most widely deployed. On top of that anything Tesla is automatically newsworthy. The most practical suggestion about how to deal with the problem that I've seen pass by is to ensure a certain minimum spacing between packs to create 'fire breaks' beyond which one pack can not ignite the next one over, but this would waste rather a large amount of space and probably would not work in situations like parking lots and such.
  - mnw21cam 5y ago
    Yeah, I believe the best handling procedures for a big tank of extremely flammable fluids with explosive volatile vapours that is sitting in a fire[0] is to run away - a long way away. Sure, put out the fire and cool down the tank too, if you can do that from a long way away. [0] https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/what-firefighters-need-to-know-about-bleves-EwLDAJRkauiIfaDR/ https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/wh...
rossdavidh 5y ago
So, it seems a little misleading to describe it as a "Tesla" fire: "The 300MW battery project is being produced by French renewable energy giant Neoen..." I mean, yes, Tesla made the batteries, but they were not the ones who were in charge of this installation. It's a little like describing a home fire by the name of the lumber company whose lumber is burning.
- sp332 5y ago
  It's a preview of what other fires with this Tesla hardware will look like, no matter who installs them.
  - bamboozled 5y ago
    I’d imagine lessons were learned from the incident though and the next time it happens, responders will be more prepared ?
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    This is not so much a Tesla hardware issue as it is a lithium ion issue. Tesla's packs are not more or less dangerous than other lithium ion battery packs.
    - officialjunk 5y ago
      This is not true. There are different chemistries. Tesla hardware, as many others, requires an active cooling system because of the KNOWN thermal issues with involving cobalt. There are lithium ion batteries without cobalt, such as Simpliphi, that do not have any runaway heat issues and therefore do not require a any cooling system, but this lithium chemistry increases the cost.
      - zaarn 5y ago
        Active cooling in lithium (or any chemistry) batteries exists to allow fast charging and discharging of the battery, as those actions produce heat. Without any cooling system, you're limited by the passive heat dissipation of the battery, which largely depends on the internal resistance. You can lower the internal resistance at the expensive of some other properties (mostly efficiency). If you don't believe this is a problem in any battery chemistry, I challenge you to find a battery that does not heat up while being charged (they all do, due to thermodynamic inefficiencies). Thermal runaway in Lithium-ion specifically is largely an effect of the lithium decomposing as a result of large heat input (by a short or physical damage). Once this has occured the battery will go through several stages of burning.
airhead969 5y ago
Of all the ways (i.e., PES, compression, flywheel, etc.) to store energy, why flammable batteries?
stuaxo 5y ago
It sounds like each of these big packs should have enough fire prevention systems to be able to put itself out in the case it does catch fire.
- CyanLite2 5y ago
  These packs have fire suppression built in, but it obviously failed. The newer LiFePO4 packs don't require this fire suppression and should be a little bit cheaper, but not as dense.
mikeytown2 5y ago
Lifepo4 for stationary storage makes so much more sense vs NMC.
- andruby 5y ago
  I agree. To iterate, the main advantages I see are: - Lower cost / kWh - No need for Cobalt (and its controversial extraction) - Better for the environment (from my basic understanding the materials are easier to obtain and less damaging) - Longer cycle life (~5K vs 2K) - No thermal runaway and less risk of catching fire The main downside is that LFP batteries are heavier per kWh, but that should mostly be a non-issue for stationary storage. The price of LFP batteries is dropping so fast. Consumers can buy a fully assembled LFP 12V 1300Wh battery for $399 on amazon [0]. Raw cells can be bought for 3-4x less from Chinese distributors. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iBMHE3StM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iBMHE3StM
SigmundA 5y ago
Also something not really making big headlines is a oil well fire in North Dakota thats going on a week burning: https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2021/07/29/624928.htm https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2021/07/29/624...
- dragontamer 5y ago
  What-about-ism is one of the worst trends of recent years IMO.
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    Recent years? Whataboutery has been around a very long time, it was particularly associated with the Soviet Union.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Sure, Russian propagandists did it. But you wouldn't necessarily see fellow forum members partake in it until recent American political elites started doing it themselves.
  - randyrand 5y ago
    If i can remember the name there is an ancient greek play that laments this phenomenon. 1000BC or so.
  - SigmundA 5y ago
    Seems like What-about-ism all the way down around here.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Sure. We can start with you explaining why an oil fire in North Dakota is related to a electrical fire in Australia. Are the policies involved in the creation of the oil well related to the Australian government? Was there a conflict in funding of some kind? Did the American Congress decide to withhold funding from one project in order to build the other? Are the two projects related in any way? EDIT: Do people even use oil as an energy storage mechanism? I don't think so. The closest "dirty" energy analog is in fact, natural gas (which are used in peaker plants). I don't believe oil is used outside of baseload power plants. Look, I'm well read and knowledgeable of many facts and disasters. I can even one-up you, and point out the Centralia mine fire, which has devastated a town and continues to burn today (In case you want to 'PROVE' that I'm anti-greenhouse gas and pro-environment, I know of plenty of anti-coal / anti-oil arguments myself). But there's almost no relevance from the Centralia mine fire vs this Australian battery fire. I'm not going to be bringing that up unless there's some kind of connection. ---------- The classic example of "Whataboutism" is when the Russians are asked about gulags, they respond about riots in the USA. You ignore the original question and instead distract the issue by talking about something your rivals are doing.
stefanve 5y ago
To me it sounds pretty good right, the fire is controlled in three days no other batteries have caught fire because of this fire. hopefully they find out what is the cause and make changes.
hypnotode 5y ago
This is a total tangent from the article, and I understand what it actually entails, but I just love that there is a real office in the Australian government whose title is 'Shadow Energy Minister'. Sounds like something out of warhammer.
Woodi 5y ago
> Something something federal gov want it's own probe before pushing forward Why they didn't push before all that was even started ?? Is it now a rule in US that gov is told what could be potentially expected and gov "pushes forward" ? Like with military ships with only touch displays controls, planes with so big engines that body was not even imagined to have them attached, cable companies telling gov what coverage they have (but really not), etc, etc ? In not so old day it was known that military guys are dumb and without imagination eg. discarding idea of Gutling's gun (until he started to gather attention somewhere else), or do not being interested in some fishy stealh jet technology... But now looks like civilian part of gov is completly and utterly dumb and clueless. And looks it's a word-wide phenomena... EDIT: Forget to mention, that being grounded in reality is a + for military guys and that looks like thay found processes for some innovations, eg. DARPA. On the other hand looks civilians-in-power are intentionaly cherish chaos, eg. Congress, Senate, Parliament.

94 points by mikro2nd 5y ago

Energy storage is hard. We'll need to iterate firefighting techniques to handle large batteries, just like we need to work on third-party repair for BEV and battery recycling programs. Fortunately these are all relatively straightforward engineering problems... small steps towards the sustainable future we must invent to survive as a species.

noja 5y ago
> We'll need to iterate firefighting techniques to handle large batteries Are there any firefighting techniques in use for handling car-size batteries?
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  Absolutely! The state of the art is to have a container, fill it with water, and put the car in. You then wait a week or two. For installations like this one which just burned down the answer is mostly: Don't let it catch fire! And if it does catch fire, make sure that you built it with large enough gaps between each unit that the fire can't spread, because you're not putting it out.
  - algo_trader 5y ago
    Also, maybe "dont use tricky NMC batteries for stationary storage, when LFT can be cheaper and safer". Still, hypothetically, can you use a (large) hose to fill a burning MegaPack container with water to cool it down? Maybe possible shorts in the other pods will make things worse?
    - johnsimer 5y ago
      LFP*?
  - martin_a 5y ago
    > The state of the art is to have a container, fill it with water, and put the car in. You then wait a week or two. As a firefighter I can confirm this. What worries me though is, that this might work well for cars, but what about batteries in homes, like Tesla powerwall and alike? We do not yet have any plans for those, you can't "easily" attach them to a crane and lift them into a container. They are built in basements, garages and more. This will become challenging in the future...
pyrale 5y ago
These are also all negative externalities at this point. Even straightforward engineering problems need funding to get engineers assigned to them.
letitbeirie 5y ago
Intrinsically safe energy storage is an oxymoron. The objective is storing large amounts of energy to be released slowly over time - if there exists any possibility whatsoever of imperfect containment, there is (by definition) some probability that it will fail and release that energy all at once. Can they be made to fail safely? Sure. Can they be made to never fail? Not for what anyone's willing to pay for them.
- foxyv 5y ago
  Lithium batteries store about 0.5 MJ/kg. Compared to the specific energy of burning lithium metal (40 MJ/kg) the energy from the electricity producing redox reaction is pretty low. In the case of lithium batteries. Our problem isn't the stored electric energy, it's the medium being a highly flammable alkaline metal. If we could somehow store that 0.5 MJ/kg in a non-flammable medium with similar energy density it would have 5% the specific energy of a similarly massing piece of hardwood.
  - letitbeirie 5y ago
    Oh damn, TIL. You'd still have the issue of the stored energy in a non-flammable medium, but that 80x energy multiplier makes the problem distinct from any other energy storage I can think of. That's like keeping your diesel in a tank made entirely out of dynamite.
- foxpurple 5y ago
  A candle stick has 100x the energy of a stick of TNT. I know which one I would rather be driving a truck full of. Energy density is not the main danger factor.

Renaud 5y ago

I wish we had better fire protection against these batteries. As we're ramping up production and large packs become ubiquitous, in cars, factories, houses, we're really ill-equipped to combat their nasty tendency to burst into flames that are basically impossible to extinguish. These things will burn if they fall below their minimal voltage, they will burn if you over-charge them, they will burn if you overheat them, they will burn if you constrain them too much, they will burn if you stab or mechanically stress them.... No fire services in the world appear to be equipped to put out those fires. At this stage, I'm wouldn't be surprised of some large-scale catastrophe brought by a defective cell in a larger pack somewhere.

api 5y ago
We learned how to very safely handle big tanks of extremely flammable fluids with explosive volatile vapors. We also learned how to deal with a system that pipes extremely explosive flammable gas into millions of homes, and outlets with high voltage electricity everywhere. We'll learn how to handle these too. Nothing capable of powering modern society or transport is going to be made of unicorn glitter. Stored energy is stored energy and there are always dangers with it. I am curious if Tesla's batteries have had more fire issues or if they're just reported more because it's Tesla and that makes it click bait.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I think a bit of both. Tesla is right at the edge of the current capabilities in terms of storage density so it is kind of logical that they would be the ones to find out the hard way what the real physical limits are with respect to handling and safety, and they are also the system that is the most widely deployed. On top of that anything Tesla is automatically newsworthy. The most practical suggestion about how to deal with the problem that I've seen pass by is to ensure a certain minimum spacing between packs to create 'fire breaks' beyond which one pack can not ignite the next one over, but this would waste rather a large amount of space and probably would not work in situations like parking lots and such.
- mnw21cam 5y ago
  Yeah, I believe the best handling procedures for a big tank of extremely flammable fluids with explosive volatile vapours that is sitting in a fire[0] is to run away - a long way away. Sure, put out the fire and cool down the tank too, if you can do that from a long way away. [0] https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/what-firefighters-need-to-know-about-bleves-EwLDAJRkauiIfaDR/ https://www.firerescue1.com/firefighter-training/articles/wh...

rossdavidh 5y ago

So, it seems a little misleading to describe it as a "Tesla" fire: "The 300MW battery project is being produced by French renewable energy giant Neoen..." I mean, yes, Tesla made the batteries, but they were not the ones who were in charge of this installation. It's a little like describing a home fire by the name of the lumber company whose lumber is burning.

sp332 5y ago
It's a preview of what other fires with this Tesla hardware will look like, no matter who installs them.
- bamboozled 5y ago
  I’d imagine lessons were learned from the incident though and the next time it happens, responders will be more prepared ?
- whatshisface 5y ago
  This is not so much a Tesla hardware issue as it is a lithium ion issue. Tesla's packs are not more or less dangerous than other lithium ion battery packs.
  - officialjunk 5y ago
    This is not true. There are different chemistries. Tesla hardware, as many others, requires an active cooling system because of the KNOWN thermal issues with involving cobalt. There are lithium ion batteries without cobalt, such as Simpliphi, that do not have any runaway heat issues and therefore do not require a any cooling system, but this lithium chemistry increases the cost.
    - zaarn 5y ago
      Active cooling in lithium (or any chemistry) batteries exists to allow fast charging and discharging of the battery, as those actions produce heat. Without any cooling system, you're limited by the passive heat dissipation of the battery, which largely depends on the internal resistance. You can lower the internal resistance at the expensive of some other properties (mostly efficiency). If you don't believe this is a problem in any battery chemistry, I challenge you to find a battery that does not heat up while being charged (they all do, due to thermodynamic inefficiencies). Thermal runaway in Lithium-ion specifically is largely an effect of the lithium decomposing as a result of large heat input (by a short or physical damage). Once this has occured the battery will go through several stages of burning.

airhead969 5y ago

Of all the ways (i.e., PES, compression, flywheel, etc.) to store energy, why flammable batteries?

stuaxo 5y ago

It sounds like each of these big packs should have enough fire prevention systems to be able to put itself out in the case it does catch fire.

CyanLite2 5y ago
These packs have fire suppression built in, but it obviously failed. The newer LiFePO4 packs don't require this fire suppression and should be a little bit cheaper, but not as dense.

mikeytown2 5y ago

Lifepo4 for stationary storage makes so much more sense vs NMC.

andruby 5y ago
I agree. To iterate, the main advantages I see are: - Lower cost / kWh - No need for Cobalt (and its controversial extraction) - Better for the environment (from my basic understanding the materials are easier to obtain and less damaging) - Longer cycle life (~5K vs 2K) - No thermal runaway and less risk of catching fire The main downside is that LFP batteries are heavier per kWh, but that should mostly be a non-issue for stationary storage. The price of LFP batteries is dropping so fast. Consumers can buy a fully assembled LFP 12V 1300Wh battery for $399 on amazon [0]. Raw cells can be bought for 3-4x less from Chinese distributors. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iBMHE3StM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iBMHE3StM

SigmundA 5y ago

Also something not really making big headlines is a oil well fire in North Dakota thats going on a week burning: https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2021/07/29/624928.htm https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2021/07/29/624...

dragontamer 5y ago
What-about-ism is one of the worst trends of recent years IMO.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  Recent years? Whataboutery has been around a very long time, it was particularly associated with the Soviet Union.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Sure, Russian propagandists did it. But you wouldn't necessarily see fellow forum members partake in it until recent American political elites started doing it themselves.
- randyrand 5y ago
  If i can remember the name there is an ancient greek play that laments this phenomenon. 1000BC or so.
- SigmundA 5y ago
  Seems like What-about-ism all the way down around here.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Sure. We can start with you explaining why an oil fire in North Dakota is related to a electrical fire in Australia. Are the policies involved in the creation of the oil well related to the Australian government? Was there a conflict in funding of some kind? Did the American Congress decide to withhold funding from one project in order to build the other? Are the two projects related in any way? EDIT: Do people even use oil as an energy storage mechanism? I don't think so. The closest "dirty" energy analog is in fact, natural gas (which are used in peaker plants). I don't believe oil is used outside of baseload power plants. Look, I'm well read and knowledgeable of many facts and disasters. I can even one-up you, and point out the Centralia mine fire, which has devastated a town and continues to burn today (In case you want to 'PROVE' that I'm anti-greenhouse gas and pro-environment, I know of plenty of anti-coal / anti-oil arguments myself). But there's almost no relevance from the Centralia mine fire vs this Australian battery fire. I'm not going to be bringing that up unless there's some kind of connection. ---------- The classic example of "Whataboutism" is when the Russians are asked about gulags, they respond about riots in the USA. You ignore the original question and instead distract the issue by talking about something your rivals are doing.

stefanve 5y ago

To me it sounds pretty good right, the fire is controlled in three days no other batteries have caught fire because of this fire. hopefully they find out what is the cause and make changes.

hypnotode 5y ago

This is a total tangent from the article, and I understand what it actually entails, but I just love that there is a real office in the Australian government whose title is 'Shadow Energy Minister'. Sounds like something out of warhammer.

Woodi 5y ago

> Something something federal gov want it's own probe before pushing forward Why they didn't push before all that was even started ?? Is it now a rule in US that gov is told what could be potentially expected and gov "pushes forward" ? Like with military ships with only touch displays controls, planes with so big engines that body was not even imagined to have them attached, cable companies telling gov what coverage they have (but really not), etc, etc ? In not so old day it was known that military guys are dumb and without imagination eg. discarding idea of Gutling's gun (until he started to gather attention somewhere else), or do not being interested in some fishy stealh jet technology... But now looks like civilian part of gov is completly and utterly dumb and clueless. And looks it's a word-wide phenomena... EDIT: Forget to mention, that being grounded in reality is a + for military guys and that looks like thay found processes for some innovations, eg. DARPA. On the other hand looks civilians-in-power are intentionaly cherish chaos, eg. Congress, Senate, Parliament.