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I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? I see nothing wrong with condemning the actions of

I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? I see nothing wrong with condemning the actions of the Israeli government, nor questioning why one of the prominent exports of the Israeli technology sector is surveillance. I keep being contacted several times a year by established Israeli companies to add spyware into my projects. A couple of weeks ago I was offered $5000 as a sign up bonus by Bright Data (formerly Luminati), before that a growth specialist from Similarweb contacted me to gather intelligence about how to aquire Firefox for Android extensions, it was so slimy I've reported the latter to Mozilla employees. I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.

noduerme 5y ago
>> can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? Because when it's done in the interest of preventing another holocaust, which is the entire reason for the existence of Israel, it's not the same as when the Chinese government does it to terrify and imprison minorities, or when Russia does it to destroy Putin's personal opponents. I too question their choice of who they licensed this tech to, but hopefully they got plenty of useful intel on those governments along the way.
- disgu 5y ago
  How is that a reason? This stuff is always justified by claiming it ensures the safety of people. Another justification has never existed for any of these.
- Cyph0n 5y ago
  How does selling spyware to authoritarian governments so that they can monitor activists and journalists “prevent another Holocaust”?
  - noduerme 5y ago
    Presumably, the real interest of the Israeli government, to the extent it's involved, is in monitoring the people they sold the software to.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    It keeps up a good working relationship with many countries who would otherwise be pressured to be hostile towards Israel. It's a diplomatic tool and it worked, see the new Abraham Accords.
- addmeaning 5y ago
  Then why it is sold to oppressive regimes to spy on people and crush activists? No, it is done for profit and profit only and it is our duty to condemn lack of government control in that sector.
  - flyinglizard 5y ago
    The answer is very simple: because these capabilities exist in Israel. Cybersecurity is rampant in the Israeli security apparatus, and spawns both offensive and defensive companies. NSO, Cellebrite and others are simply the flip side of companies like Checkpoint ($16bn), SentinelOne ($13bn) and Imperva and countless others. As you get released from military duty as a 20-something developer with world class cybersecurity skills, you either go offensive or defensive (and we all know which one is more exciting and possibly better paying). It's not surprising that an industry develops around skilled workforce. Happens all the time with companies around universities.
- anders_p 5y ago
  >...when it's done in the interest of preventing another holocaust... Spying on journalists critical of oppressive regimes, has absolutely nothing to do with "preventing another holocaust". Arming tyrants with technology that enables them to crush dissent, by spying on their opposition and journalists is inexcusable. That Israel wants to gather intelligence on hostile neighbors and prevent a new holocaust is legitimate. But they shouldn't be immune to critique of their actions, by deflecting it with accusations of antisemitism and mentioning the holocaust.
maltalex 5y ago
> I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? No one is saying you should be pro-Israel in this instance. But an anti-anything stance should be reasonable and based on facts. The fact that a country with a very large high tech sector is home to some questionable companies doesn't say much about the country as a whole. >I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size. That's probably because you're unaware of the size of the Israeli high tech sector, which is completely disproportional to the country's size. From Wikipedia [0]: > It [Israel] has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world after the United States, and the third-largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies after the U.S. and China. American companies such as Intel, Microsoft, and Apple built their first overseas research and development facilities in Israel, and other high-tech multi-national corporations, such as IBM, Google, HP, Cisco Systems, Facebook and Motorola have opened R&D centres in the country Also relevant - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel
raxxorrax 5y ago
As a EU citizen I don't criticise Israel for their weapon exports to much as that would be heavily hypocritical and it would also neglect the fact that EU officials actually want to implement said surveillance towards its citizens. That is not a fault of Israel, even if you want it to be.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  Surely it is a fault of Israel – and also the EU? Just because our lot do it too, that doesn't stop it being a problem.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    I would feel pretty stupid to criticise Israel when it comes out that my own government ordered their software. They supposedly didn't buy it, but it was on the table for negotiation.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      If you feel stupid saying something that indirectly criticises your government, democracy shall soon fall.
      - raxxorrax 5y ago
        No. I will criticize such decision but Israel is the wrong address in this case.
    - tremon 5y ago
      Why? Were you party to that decision of your government?
      - raxxorrax 5y ago
        I live in a democracy so I am partially responsible for anything my government does. Even and especially when it does something I don't like.
kota2 5y ago
I didn't realize it was even that bad. Wow.

noduerme 5y ago

>> can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? Because when it's done in the interest of preventing another holocaust, which is the entire reason for the existence of Israel, it's not the same as when the Chinese government does it to terrify and imprison minorities, or when Russia does it to destroy Putin's personal opponents. I too question their choice of who they licensed this tech to, but hopefully they got plenty of useful intel on those governments along the way.

disgu 5y ago
How is that a reason? This stuff is always justified by claiming it ensures the safety of people. Another justification has never existed for any of these.
Cyph0n 5y ago
How does selling spyware to authoritarian governments so that they can monitor activists and journalists “prevent another Holocaust”?
- noduerme 5y ago
  Presumably, the real interest of the Israeli government, to the extent it's involved, is in monitoring the people they sold the software to.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  It keeps up a good working relationship with many countries who would otherwise be pressured to be hostile towards Israel. It's a diplomatic tool and it worked, see the new Abraham Accords.
addmeaning 5y ago
Then why it is sold to oppressive regimes to spy on people and crush activists? No, it is done for profit and profit only and it is our duty to condemn lack of government control in that sector.
- flyinglizard 5y ago
  The answer is very simple: because these capabilities exist in Israel. Cybersecurity is rampant in the Israeli security apparatus, and spawns both offensive and defensive companies. NSO, Cellebrite and others are simply the flip side of companies like Checkpoint ($16bn), SentinelOne ($13bn) and Imperva and countless others. As you get released from military duty as a 20-something developer with world class cybersecurity skills, you either go offensive or defensive (and we all know which one is more exciting and possibly better paying). It's not surprising that an industry develops around skilled workforce. Happens all the time with companies around universities.
anders_p 5y ago
>...when it's done in the interest of preventing another holocaust... Spying on journalists critical of oppressive regimes, has absolutely nothing to do with "preventing another holocaust". Arming tyrants with technology that enables them to crush dissent, by spying on their opposition and journalists is inexcusable. That Israel wants to gather intelligence on hostile neighbors and prevent a new holocaust is legitimate. But they shouldn't be immune to critique of their actions, by deflecting it with accusations of antisemitism and mentioning the holocaust.

maltalex 5y ago

> I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? No one is saying you should be pro-Israel in this instance. But an anti-anything stance should be reasonable and based on facts. The fact that a country with a very large high tech sector is home to some questionable companies doesn't say much about the country as a whole. >I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size. That's probably because you're unaware of the size of the Israeli high tech sector, which is completely disproportional to the country's size. From Wikipedia [0]: > It [Israel] has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world after the United States, and the third-largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies after the U.S. and China. American companies such as Intel, Microsoft, and Apple built their first overseas research and development facilities in Israel, and other high-tech multi-national corporations, such as IBM, Google, HP, Cisco Systems, Facebook and Motorola have opened R&D centres in the country Also relevant - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

raxxorrax 5y ago

As a EU citizen I don't criticise Israel for their weapon exports to much as that would be heavily hypocritical and it would also neglect the fact that EU officials actually want to implement said surveillance towards its citizens. That is not a fault of Israel, even if you want it to be.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
Surely it is a fault of Israel – and also the EU? Just because our lot do it too, that doesn't stop it being a problem.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I would feel pretty stupid to criticise Israel when it comes out that my own government ordered their software. They supposedly didn't buy it, but it was on the table for negotiation.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    If you feel stupid saying something that indirectly criticises your government, democracy shall soon fall.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      No. I will criticize such decision but Israel is the wrong address in this case.
  - tremon 5y ago
    Why? Were you party to that decision of your government?
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      I live in a democracy so I am partially responsible for anything my government does. Even and especially when it does something I don't like.

kota2 5y ago

I didn't realize it was even that bad. Wow.