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For everyone saying that it's risk mitigation, I recently asked about something similar[0] for a junior position, and the process still hasn't finished. For con

For everyone saying that it's risk mitigation, I recently asked about something similar[0] for a junior position, and the process still hasn't finished. For context, the company is a medium-size tech company with presence mostly in Europe and Asia. I don't know these things well enough but it makes no sense to me. For starters, in the tech sector in my country the salary for fresh grads like me actually come mostly from the government. Moreover, these companies are all secretive about compensation, and they probably think they can get away with it by dangling their "reputation" in front of you like a carrot. In most cases the salary is about the same as a small startup because, again, they get the money from the government. People can argue about spending time and resources on training and what not but basically every job ad, from "top" companies to the web dev garage down the road, expects us to learn by ourselves anyway? It's frustrating for early career starters that most of my friends and I are going through. It's such a huge waste of everyone's time and people are just churning because of this crap. Please get rid of non-technical HR and interviewers. Sorry for the emotional rant. I would really like to know what risks (other than useless non-technical HR keeping their jobs) there are after candidates have past a certain threshold for quality, particularly for junior positions. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27881668 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27881668

yarky 5y ago
> I would really like to know what risks (other than useless non-technical HR keeping their jobs) there are after candidates have past a certain threshold for quality, particularly for junior positions. It's harder to deal with emotional kids than it is to deal with incompetent engineers. Maybe that's why those non-technical HRs might not be as useless as you think.
- mitsuchen 5y ago
  You made the mistake to assume that we are idiotic enough to be emotional for job interviews. It's harder to deal with people who think they are competent and know it all than emotional kids.
  - yarky 5y ago
    > You made the mistake to assume that we are idiotic enough to be emotional for job interviews. And that's a risk that could potentially be spotted by a competent HR. > It's harder to deal with people who think they are competent and know it all than emotional kids. Maybe, but juniors are (unfortunately) seen as a commodity by the market. Commodities are about uniformity and adherence to some standard, rather than uniqueness.
    - mitsuchen 5y ago
      > And that's a risk that could potentially be spotted by a competent HR. It's a risk that could only be spotted be HR, don't know about the "competent" part. There would be no emotional-kid risks to speak of if it weren't for useless HR. > Maybe, but juniors are (unfortunately) seen as a commodity by the market. Commodities are about uniformity and adherence to some standard, rather than uniqueness. It's making even less sense now. If we are commodities and it's all about uniformity and standard, why do we see senior engineers complaining about this, too? It also makes no economic sense to spend so much time and effort on elaborate bullshit on "commodities". I don't mind being a commodity if the standards that you speak of exist, and I don't want to be unique. But guess what? It's the HR that wants us to be the unique commodities.
      - arp242 5y ago
        The most difficult people I've worked with were not because of technical reasons, but due to reasons outside of that: inability to disagree constructively, unwillingness to compromise, or just general assholes. That kind of stuff. Someone without the required technical chops can be useless, which isn't good, but these people can be worse than useless as they can derail and/or demoralize an entire team. I've seen it happen; it's not pretty. This isn't unique to younger people, but in my experience the risk is quite a bit higher in younger people. I say this also as someone who, in hindsight, was quite difficult to work with when I was younger for various reasons. As I've grown older, I've learned a thing or two and I think that now I'm actually a fairly nice person to work with (I hope so, anyway...) Everything else being equal, I'd rather take someone with a 9 (out of 10) on soft skills and a 6 or 7 on technical skills, than someone with a 3 or 4 on soft skills but a 10 on technical skills.
jijji 5y ago
On all job responses you should spell out your minimum salary requirements before you agree to the interview, unless you are ok with wasting time on interviews only to get low balled on the salary side or it doesn't match your minimum requirements.
- mitsuchen 5y ago
  Most of us don't have the privilege to negotiate, we are fresh grads. Who doesn't want to work for larger companies in the hope for a better career path? And don't forget about power asymmetry.

yarky 5y ago

> I would really like to know what risks (other than useless non-technical HR keeping their jobs) there are after candidates have past a certain threshold for quality, particularly for junior positions. It's harder to deal with emotional kids than it is to deal with incompetent engineers. Maybe that's why those non-technical HRs might not be as useless as you think.

mitsuchen 5y ago
You made the mistake to assume that we are idiotic enough to be emotional for job interviews. It's harder to deal with people who think they are competent and know it all than emotional kids.
- yarky 5y ago
  > You made the mistake to assume that we are idiotic enough to be emotional for job interviews. And that's a risk that could potentially be spotted by a competent HR. > It's harder to deal with people who think they are competent and know it all than emotional kids. Maybe, but juniors are (unfortunately) seen as a commodity by the market. Commodities are about uniformity and adherence to some standard, rather than uniqueness.
  - mitsuchen 5y ago
    > And that's a risk that could potentially be spotted by a competent HR. It's a risk that could only be spotted be HR, don't know about the "competent" part. There would be no emotional-kid risks to speak of if it weren't for useless HR. > Maybe, but juniors are (unfortunately) seen as a commodity by the market. Commodities are about uniformity and adherence to some standard, rather than uniqueness. It's making even less sense now. If we are commodities and it's all about uniformity and standard, why do we see senior engineers complaining about this, too? It also makes no economic sense to spend so much time and effort on elaborate bullshit on "commodities". I don't mind being a commodity if the standards that you speak of exist, and I don't want to be unique. But guess what? It's the HR that wants us to be the unique commodities.
    - arp242 5y ago
      The most difficult people I've worked with were not because of technical reasons, but due to reasons outside of that: inability to disagree constructively, unwillingness to compromise, or just general assholes. That kind of stuff. Someone without the required technical chops can be useless, which isn't good, but these people can be worse than useless as they can derail and/or demoralize an entire team. I've seen it happen; it's not pretty. This isn't unique to younger people, but in my experience the risk is quite a bit higher in younger people. I say this also as someone who, in hindsight, was quite difficult to work with when I was younger for various reasons. As I've grown older, I've learned a thing or two and I think that now I'm actually a fairly nice person to work with (I hope so, anyway...) Everything else being equal, I'd rather take someone with a 9 (out of 10) on soft skills and a 6 or 7 on technical skills, than someone with a 3 or 4 on soft skills but a 10 on technical skills.

jijji 5y ago

On all job responses you should spell out your minimum salary requirements before you agree to the interview, unless you are ok with wasting time on interviews only to get low balled on the salary side or it doesn't match your minimum requirements.

mitsuchen 5y ago
Most of us don't have the privilege to negotiate, we are fresh grads. Who doesn't want to work for larger companies in the hope for a better career path? And don't forget about power asymmetry.