39 ms·

Sentenced by Algorithm

90 points by prostoalex 5y ago

vinsci 5y ago
Actually, the headline could be more technically correct written as "sentenced by algorithm executing on backdoored remotely controlled computer", as that is the case today. Enjoy your dystopia of greed, fraud, and injustice.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
onos 5y ago
It seems the appropriate method to judge this approach is in comparison to the baseline referenced at the start: humans making “black box” judgement calls that are subject to the individual judge’s biases. If the computer programmed decision making were (already is?) transparent, then we could critique it and work to ensure something resembling fair is encoded.
- ljm 5y ago
  How would you define 'fair'? I've a few examples, gathered from being alive and hearing what other people think for a few decades. 1. It's fair to punish someone else if you let another off the hook 2. It's fair to treat someone more harshly if you don't like what they've done 3. It's fair to turn the other cheek because they're a friend 4. It's fair to treat someone differently because of where they came from or their skin colour 5. It's fair to give someone a pass because they did you a favour 6. It's fair to be unfair because you owe someone a favour 7. It's unfair to be a victim who doesn't get justice 8. It's unfair to be an innocent person who is prosecuted for someone else's crime 9. It's unfair to not get what you wait 10. It's fair to get what you want You will find a variation of all of these examples across the world right now. The point is, fairness is loaded with bias and therefore any algorithm that tries to deal with 'fairness' is going to inherit the bias of those who designed it.
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    You make really good points. Life is bizarre and human culture is extremely contradictory and difficult to quantify. And what's worse our definition of 'fair' maybe advancing just like culture is constantly advancing. African Americans may have been treated poorly by the algorithm back in the 1700s when they we're considered less than a full person by the legal system for example. And maybe in the future drug offenses may be considered not a big deal. They call the Constitution a living document. This algorithm may have to be a living algorithm. What if it was open source and constantly updated and reviewed to reach consensus? There would probably also have to be human appeal processes. I definitely think this is intriguing as a first-level sentencing determination though.
    - ljm 5y ago
      > African Americans may have been treated poorly by the algorithm back in the 1700s Fucking hell, man.
      - nickthemagicman 5y ago
        ?
        fidesomnes 5y ago
        You did not demonstrate enough navel gazing and bemoaning of original sin all non people of color are guilty of. If I knew were you worked I could have you fired.
      - claylevering 5y ago
        ...YIKES.
        nickthemagicman 5y ago
        ?
      - 5y ago
- geephroh 5y ago
  "Computer programmed decision making" is anything but transparent currently. Just look at the example of Northpointe, Inc.'s COMPAS ("Correctional Offender Management Profiling for Alternative Sanctions") tool, which purports to measure recidivism risk. Even under threat of lawsuit, Northpointe refused to reveal the underlying source because it is a "protected trade secret."[1] Are judges biased? Of course, and that is not acceptable. However, the answer is not to surrender our system of justice to unaccountable commercial actors. 1. https://www.uclalawreview.org/injustice-ex-machina-predictive-algorithms-in-criminal-sentencing/ https://www.uclalawreview.org/injustice-ex-machina-predictiv...
  - pyuser583 5y ago
    “Compas” was also the name of the test used by Wisconsin community colleges to assess students. It was legally required that all community college students take it, even if they were only taking a single course. It seemed like a really corrupt arrangement. Want to take a language class to complete a high school requirement? You have to pay $100 to a for profit company to assess your math skills. Seems community colleges no longer use a test branded as “Compas”. Edit: it was “Compass” and discontinued in 2015 over concerns of its accuracy. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/06/18/act-drops-popular-compass-placement-test-acknowledging-its-predictive-limits https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/06/18/act-drops-pop...
- romwell 5y ago
  "Something resembling fair", i.e. unfair? We already have that. Not that the idea of codifying fairness is new; a certain guy named Hammurabi started the trend a while ago. The result of humanity's collective attempt to create a Transparent Fairness Flowchart still leaves much to be desired. Replacing codex with code, will, however, streamline the process by entirely removing (the already meager) accountability for bad decisions, as well making it effectively impossible to correct them: "Computer says no" [1] [1] https://youtu.be/0n_Ty_72Qds https://youtu.be/0n_Ty_72Qds
- masswerk 5y ago
  I can actually see a use case in earmarking court decisions for review that are far off from what may have been expected. Handing over the decision altogether, however, is like handing justice over to a theatrical magician ("The Great Fully Automated Barnum Court"): it's commercially incentivized, you may not know the trick, because it's a trade secret, and it's not the real thing, either. (But, exactly because of this, people will fall for it.) Also, judgement is very much about discerning correlation from causation, so correlation based data may not be the best foundation, to begin with.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    This reminded me of something I read, and I can't recall whether it was in Argentina under the junta, or in North Korea, or in the USSR ...but the gist was that people sentenced for minor crimes or for irritating the state were essentially assigned random sentences and punishments, divorced from or even absurdly light or harsh relative to their suppose crimes, as a way of terrorizing the population. Or maybe I'm thinking of a Kafka story, or Dostoevsky's mock execution. Or 1984. Shit. I've lost it. [edit] Might have been from the Killing Fields. Wow, this is really dredging up a lot of wonderful historical references...
    - crooked-v 5y ago
      Don't forget the film Brazil, where a bug-induced misprinted warrant leads to an obviously wrong person being arrested and then interrogated to death, because how could the machine be wrong?
Nasrudith 5y ago
Really thoughts for the topic remain as always: stop letting the people in power pass the buck to the algorithim. That is the entire purpose of those algorithms as implemented in the real world as opposed to some pie in the sky theorist - letting them escape responsibility. I will also note that algorithimic sentencing existed before computers with sentencing guidelines.
evdkush 5y ago
So you're saying that computer algorithms are classifying based on correlations they've found in the data?
- Gravyness 5y ago
  If the model starts having "racial bias" then the answer is to remove the "race" and "skin color" parameters and opensource it, not make propaganda against machine learning because it has biases. Of course it has biases, you know what else has biases? Humans, who will outright lie about their biases (such a feat machines have yet to do) to divert the attention for personal agendas.
neiman 5y ago
You can't automate justice.Minority report explained it perfectly, yet the decision makers, out of laziness, choose to ignore this.
- amelius 5y ago
  Decision makers don't watch movies and don't read HN.
swayvil 5y ago
Combine this with UBI and a monitoring collar (cellphone). Running a society becomes ridiculously easy. Simcity. It might not be a free society per se, but it might be a very happy one. (I'm getting that friendly "you are posting too much, wait an unspecified period of time before we'll allow you to post again." thing. It discourages trolls but it also enforces mediocrity and conformity. Just saying.)
- failuser 5y ago
  Happy? People sentenced by a judge or jury have a hope of appeal. People sentenced by Google don’t have any hope.
  - swayvil 5y ago
    Yeah, but we would have a lot more free time. Life would be simpler. And as long as you keep your behavior within the statistical sweet-zone the justicebots will leave you alone. (Much like social media, actually)
    - AstralStorm 5y ago
      Look up chilling effects. This would be literally a kind of enforced conservatism. Imagine this was up when Gallileo was being sentenced. How many Socrateses do you want to prevent? And so on. Society can be wrong and mindlessly enforcing status quo is often immoral.
      - swayvil 5y ago
        Yes. As I said. It might not be a free society, per se.
foxfired 5y ago
Is the sentencing the bottleneck in the justice system? Is it something that is so tedious to do that we rather have a machine do it? Or is it that we want to eliminate bias so we let the algorithm do it? Because machines are cold calculator that only cares about the data. Or is it shifting the responsibility? If a judge gives a light sentence to a person who ends up committing a crime again, does the judge get the blame? Is the algorithm an externalizer that dilutes the responsibility? "Well the machine said he was clean, it knows a thing or two we don't know. Plus it's a black box I'm just an ol judge. I don't know how email works, but it works all the same."
- masklinn 5y ago
  > "Well the machine said he was clean, it knows a thing or two we don't know. Plus it's a black box I'm just an ol judge. I don't know how email works, but it works all the same." Sounds like that, and the usual bias laundering because “AI” is helpful for that. AFAIK a sentencing hearing usually takes minutes, maybe an hour if the parties don’t agree and there are lots of victims or witnesses and the judge wants to hear from them. Only in rather exceptional case does the judge need to adjourn for sentencing.
TanteTara 5y ago
I miss any discussion about the elephant in the room: On what data does a potential algorithm base its decision? Who puts in that data? If you know how the algorithm works (and this one must be open source), you can game it by manipulating the data it gets to see (or not) and how the specific wording is. Can the algorithm generate and ask questions by itself? Again that would be pointless if you know the algorithm - you would know the question beforehand and how exactly a given answer influences the outcome. This idea cannot ever work until you have a strong general AI (which you can not predict any more and which may have its own biases) and we are as far from a strong general AI as we have ever been.
- candiodari 5y ago
  It has been shown many times that if you know the human making the decisions, you can game it by knowing the person, or anything from having a preexisting relationship with them, being famous, dependence (e.g. they're a tenant of you, or a landlord), planting ideas, ... Most of these are not illegal, or even possible to avoid. And then, of course, there's racism, nepotism and outright bribery. Humans, under the best of circumstances, are known to be unfair. Can an algorithm really be that much worse ?
  - notahacker 5y ago
    You miss the point. We don't have a computer process that establishes factors such as the level of remorse expressed by the offender or their claimed motive, whether their misinterpretation of the relevant law is plausible or not, or the magnitude of the harm caused to the victim or whether the plaintiff's claim of monetary losses suffered is plausible or not so the "algorithm" is a thin veneer over a human determining which factors are and aren't relevant... so you get exactly the same level of bias before plus noise from the human judge making these determinations not knowing exactly how the algorithm works and a false claim of greater impartiality. It's probably even worse if you try to pull the human out the loop altogether and throw an ML black box at the testimony, which doesn't understand the actual situation the defendant describes at all but does pick up the statistical association between African American vernacular words used and higher sentences in its training corpus. Much easier to train a model that picks up the prejudice in sentencing factors than the situational nuance...
howaboutnope 5y ago
More timely than ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Power_and_Human_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Power_and_Human_Reaso...
smusamashah 5y ago
Isn't the court system itself flawed already. How can one person win a case by hiring a "better lawyer". It means the other party can be proven wrong if you have enough money. Which means court system does not depend on facts as much as how lawyers twists words to fit a law.

90 points by prostoalex 5y ago

Actually, the headline could be more technically correct written as "sentenced by algorithm executing on backdoored remotely controlled computer", as that is the case today. Enjoy your dystopia of greed, fraud, and injustice.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

onos 5y ago

It seems the appropriate method to judge this approach is in comparison to the baseline referenced at the start: humans making “black box” judgement calls that are subject to the individual judge’s biases. If the computer programmed decision making were (already is?) transparent, then we could critique it and work to ensure something resembling fair is encoded.

ljm 5y ago
How would you define 'fair'? I've a few examples, gathered from being alive and hearing what other people think for a few decades. 1. It's fair to punish someone else if you let another off the hook 2. It's fair to treat someone more harshly if you don't like what they've done 3. It's fair to turn the other cheek because they're a friend 4. It's fair to treat someone differently because of where they came from or their skin colour 5. It's fair to give someone a pass because they did you a favour 6. It's fair to be unfair because you owe someone a favour 7. It's unfair to be a victim who doesn't get justice 8. It's unfair to be an innocent person who is prosecuted for someone else's crime 9. It's unfair to not get what you wait 10. It's fair to get what you want You will find a variation of all of these examples across the world right now. The point is, fairness is loaded with bias and therefore any algorithm that tries to deal with 'fairness' is going to inherit the bias of those who designed it.
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  You make really good points. Life is bizarre and human culture is extremely contradictory and difficult to quantify. And what's worse our definition of 'fair' maybe advancing just like culture is constantly advancing. African Americans may have been treated poorly by the algorithm back in the 1700s when they we're considered less than a full person by the legal system for example. And maybe in the future drug offenses may be considered not a big deal. They call the Constitution a living document. This algorithm may have to be a living algorithm. What if it was open source and constantly updated and reviewed to reach consensus? There would probably also have to be human appeal processes. I definitely think this is intriguing as a first-level sentencing determination though.
  - ljm 5y ago
    > African Americans may have been treated poorly by the algorithm back in the 1700s Fucking hell, man.
    - nickthemagicman 5y ago
      ?
      - fidesomnes 5y ago
        You did not demonstrate enough navel gazing and bemoaning of original sin all non people of color are guilty of. If I knew were you worked I could have you fired.
    - claylevering 5y ago
      ...YIKES.
      - nickthemagicman 5y ago
        ?
    - 5y ago
geephroh 5y ago
"Computer programmed decision making" is anything but transparent currently. Just look at the example of Northpointe, Inc.'s COMPAS ("Correctional Offender Management Profiling for Alternative Sanctions") tool, which purports to measure recidivism risk. Even under threat of lawsuit, Northpointe refused to reveal the underlying source because it is a "protected trade secret."[1] Are judges biased? Of course, and that is not acceptable. However, the answer is not to surrender our system of justice to unaccountable commercial actors. 1. https://www.uclalawreview.org/injustice-ex-machina-predictive-algorithms-in-criminal-sentencing/ https://www.uclalawreview.org/injustice-ex-machina-predictiv...
- pyuser583 5y ago
  “Compas” was also the name of the test used by Wisconsin community colleges to assess students. It was legally required that all community college students take it, even if they were only taking a single course. It seemed like a really corrupt arrangement. Want to take a language class to complete a high school requirement? You have to pay $100 to a for profit company to assess your math skills. Seems community colleges no longer use a test branded as “Compas”. Edit: it was “Compass” and discontinued in 2015 over concerns of its accuracy. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/06/18/act-drops-popular-compass-placement-test-acknowledging-its-predictive-limits https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/06/18/act-drops-pop...
romwell 5y ago
"Something resembling fair", i.e. unfair? We already have that. Not that the idea of codifying fairness is new; a certain guy named Hammurabi started the trend a while ago. The result of humanity's collective attempt to create a Transparent Fairness Flowchart still leaves much to be desired. Replacing codex with code, will, however, streamline the process by entirely removing (the already meager) accountability for bad decisions, as well making it effectively impossible to correct them: "Computer says no" [1] [1] https://youtu.be/0n_Ty_72Qds https://youtu.be/0n_Ty_72Qds
masswerk 5y ago
I can actually see a use case in earmarking court decisions for review that are far off from what may have been expected. Handing over the decision altogether, however, is like handing justice over to a theatrical magician ("The Great Fully Automated Barnum Court"): it's commercially incentivized, you may not know the trick, because it's a trade secret, and it's not the real thing, either. (But, exactly because of this, people will fall for it.) Also, judgement is very much about discerning correlation from causation, so correlation based data may not be the best foundation, to begin with.
- noduerme 5y ago
  This reminded me of something I read, and I can't recall whether it was in Argentina under the junta, or in North Korea, or in the USSR ...but the gist was that people sentenced for minor crimes or for irritating the state were essentially assigned random sentences and punishments, divorced from or even absurdly light or harsh relative to their suppose crimes, as a way of terrorizing the population. Or maybe I'm thinking of a Kafka story, or Dostoevsky's mock execution. Or 1984. Shit. I've lost it. [edit] Might have been from the Killing Fields. Wow, this is really dredging up a lot of wonderful historical references...
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    Don't forget the film Brazil, where a bug-induced misprinted warrant leads to an obviously wrong person being arrested and then interrogated to death, because how could the machine be wrong?

Nasrudith 5y ago

Really thoughts for the topic remain as always: stop letting the people in power pass the buck to the algorithim. That is the entire purpose of those algorithms as implemented in the real world as opposed to some pie in the sky theorist - letting them escape responsibility. I will also note that algorithimic sentencing existed before computers with sentencing guidelines.

evdkush 5y ago

So you're saying that computer algorithms are classifying based on correlations they've found in the data?

Gravyness 5y ago
If the model starts having "racial bias" then the answer is to remove the "race" and "skin color" parameters and opensource it, not make propaganda against machine learning because it has biases. Of course it has biases, you know what else has biases? Humans, who will outright lie about their biases (such a feat machines have yet to do) to divert the attention for personal agendas.

neiman 5y ago

You can't automate justice.Minority report explained it perfectly, yet the decision makers, out of laziness, choose to ignore this.

amelius 5y ago
Decision makers don't watch movies and don't read HN.

swayvil 5y ago

Combine this with UBI and a monitoring collar (cellphone). Running a society becomes ridiculously easy. Simcity. It might not be a free society per se, but it might be a very happy one. (I'm getting that friendly "you are posting too much, wait an unspecified period of time before we'll allow you to post again." thing. It discourages trolls but it also enforces mediocrity and conformity. Just saying.)

failuser 5y ago
Happy? People sentenced by a judge or jury have a hope of appeal. People sentenced by Google don’t have any hope.
- swayvil 5y ago
  Yeah, but we would have a lot more free time. Life would be simpler. And as long as you keep your behavior within the statistical sweet-zone the justicebots will leave you alone. (Much like social media, actually)
  - AstralStorm 5y ago
    Look up chilling effects. This would be literally a kind of enforced conservatism. Imagine this was up when Gallileo was being sentenced. How many Socrateses do you want to prevent? And so on. Society can be wrong and mindlessly enforcing status quo is often immoral.
    - swayvil 5y ago
      Yes. As I said. It might not be a free society, per se.

foxfired 5y ago

Is the sentencing the bottleneck in the justice system? Is it something that is so tedious to do that we rather have a machine do it? Or is it that we want to eliminate bias so we let the algorithm do it? Because machines are cold calculator that only cares about the data. Or is it shifting the responsibility? If a judge gives a light sentence to a person who ends up committing a crime again, does the judge get the blame? Is the algorithm an externalizer that dilutes the responsibility? "Well the machine said he was clean, it knows a thing or two we don't know. Plus it's a black box I'm just an ol judge. I don't know how email works, but it works all the same."

masklinn 5y ago
> "Well the machine said he was clean, it knows a thing or two we don't know. Plus it's a black box I'm just an ol judge. I don't know how email works, but it works all the same." Sounds like that, and the usual bias laundering because “AI” is helpful for that. AFAIK a sentencing hearing usually takes minutes, maybe an hour if the parties don’t agree and there are lots of victims or witnesses and the judge wants to hear from them. Only in rather exceptional case does the judge need to adjourn for sentencing.

TanteTara 5y ago

I miss any discussion about the elephant in the room: On what data does a potential algorithm base its decision? Who puts in that data? If you know how the algorithm works (and this one must be open source), you can game it by manipulating the data it gets to see (or not) and how the specific wording is. Can the algorithm generate and ask questions by itself? Again that would be pointless if you know the algorithm - you would know the question beforehand and how exactly a given answer influences the outcome. This idea cannot ever work until you have a strong general AI (which you can not predict any more and which may have its own biases) and we are as far from a strong general AI as we have ever been.

candiodari 5y ago
It has been shown many times that if you know the human making the decisions, you can game it by knowing the person, or anything from having a preexisting relationship with them, being famous, dependence (e.g. they're a tenant of you, or a landlord), planting ideas, ... Most of these are not illegal, or even possible to avoid. And then, of course, there's racism, nepotism and outright bribery. Humans, under the best of circumstances, are known to be unfair. Can an algorithm really be that much worse ?
- notahacker 5y ago
  You miss the point. We don't have a computer process that establishes factors such as the level of remorse expressed by the offender or their claimed motive, whether their misinterpretation of the relevant law is plausible or not, or the magnitude of the harm caused to the victim or whether the plaintiff's claim of monetary losses suffered is plausible or not so the "algorithm" is a thin veneer over a human determining which factors are and aren't relevant... so you get exactly the same level of bias before plus noise from the human judge making these determinations not knowing exactly how the algorithm works and a false claim of greater impartiality. It's probably even worse if you try to pull the human out the loop altogether and throw an ML black box at the testimony, which doesn't understand the actual situation the defendant describes at all but does pick up the statistical association between African American vernacular words used and higher sentences in its training corpus. Much easier to train a model that picks up the prejudice in sentencing factors than the situational nuance...

howaboutnope 5y ago

More timely than ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Power_and_Human_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Power_and_Human_Reaso...

smusamashah 5y ago

Isn't the court system itself flawed already. How can one person win a case by hiring a "better lawyer". It means the other party can be proven wrong if you have enough money. Which means court system does not depend on facts as much as how lawyers twists words to fit a law.