16 ms·

Even if you think you’re well paid, now is the time to look around. I’ve had a lot of friends, mentees, and coworkers get huge bumps on total compensation even

by dbish 5y ago

Even if you think you’re well paid, now is the time to look around. I’ve had a lot of friends, mentees, and coworkers get huge bumps on total compensation even as relatively senior engineers and managers. Pay is jumping and companies aren’t doing a great job keeping that up for their people who have been around for a few years. As an employer, that should be the top worry, keep comp up, don’t lose your people because you’ve become complacent on pay and don’t understand that the market is changing right now

throwawaysleep 5y ago
For those of you who have done this, how do you maximise your compensation? Tips appreciated.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25092246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25092246
  - throwawaysleep 5y ago
    > That means doing getting multiple offers within the same time period before you accept one. I need help on getting to the salary negotiation part with multiple companies at the same time though. This is the instruction booklet for landing a lunar lander on the Moon. I need the one for the Saturn V.
    - grepfru_it 5y ago
      Accept offer A. Receive offer B. If offer B > offer A, let company A know something has come up and you cannot continue employment. Accept offer B. Lather, rinse, repeat for each offer. The better offer may be salary, perks, or just better work conditions. I once left a company after working there for 9 days because I got an offer working with my friend. I didn't even get a better salary and my friend ended up leaving after 3 months..
      - axpy906 5y ago
        That’s not how to do it. You get offer A and B then push them to bid on you. Having competing offers gives you leverage, use that to get the best employment terms.
      - aix1 5y ago
        I think that's a recipe for becoming unemployable.
        grepfru_it 5y ago
        You obviously stop at some point, a 6 month gap on your resume is not a good look.
    - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
      A lesson I did not learn: I dedicated each lunch hour every day for a couple of months ringing up companies and agencies. I moved jobs three times and doubled my salary in that year - which seemed good. Then I attended a seminar - the question was asked who used agencies and who used their "network" for new jobs / freelance work. I was the only hand up to go used agencies and the traditional job hunt. So it's the old saw - keep a profile up - blog, project, podcast whatever, so you can use that as an excuse to stay in touch with ex-colleagues so that they might think of you when they are hiring in 3 years. As I said not a lesson I have learned but people who earn more than me recommend it
      - mooreds 5y ago
        And don't dismiss LinkedIn! It's a rolodex other people keep up to date. Log on once a week and like posts by other folks (job posts, interesting articles, whatever). Send a congrats message as suggested by LI when someone starts a new job. Send someone a job that seems like it might be of interest to them when you see it. Post something you wrote/built/read about. The goal is to keep in touch so that when you are ready to start looking, you aren't starting from ground zero.
    - avidiax 5y ago
      1st: interviewing is a game. Treat it as such. Leetcode like hell. Tune your behavioral responses to the stated principles of the target company, and your experience/resume to the needs of that company. 2nd: Submitting resumes goes nowhere. You need referrals. Ask for them shamelessly. You don't need to know the referee. That will at least get your resume looked at. This is their game, so play it. 3rd: have an idea of the timeline to an offer for various companies. Do your Google/Facebook interviews early, more nimble companies later. Start the whole thing off with some practice interviews at companies you don't like. The goal is to have multiple offers in play at the same time. 4th: Don't tell recruiters about your other offers until it's too late and they've decided that they want you. Only tell them about offers that they might compete against (usually their direct competitors), 2 others max. If you'd work at company A for $80 b/c they have a cool product, but would need $100 to work at company B b/c they suck, when you tell company B about your offer at company A, fudge that company's numbers upward. Otherwise, you'll get an offer for $81 from company B and turn them down.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  Ask for it. Seriously. I interviewed with one company, things went well, I was interested, but they came out of the gate with total comp that was lower than I was looking for. They were looking at a stock grant of X over 4 years. That would have worked, provided that I was basically guaranteed a refresher each year for X (so that by year 4 I'd making X per year in RSUs). I found out that refreshers were usually not for that amount, and not guaranteed (barring performance issues). I indicated I was looking for X per year in RSUs (given the salary and bonus they were looking to offer). The recruiter was a bit shocked, but went and asked anyway...she came back with an offer granting 4X RSUs upfront, meaning, yeah, I'd be getting X every year, starting from year 1. And I'd still be eligible for refreshers and whatnot each year.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    I learned to ask for things just a bit too late. For my current role, the job description explicitly noted there would be no relocation assistance. I ended up paying for my move out of pocket. They were actually looking for two people for the role I was applying to. After starting, I met the other guy that was hired a few months before me. He had moved from even further than I had. After talking, he mentioned he was given relocation assistance. When I asked him about the explicit mention that that would not be offered. He simply told me he noticed it, but asked anyway and got it.
    - lostcolony 5y ago
      Expensive lesson, but a useful one. A good candidate who is willing to sign is too valuable to pass on just because they're asking for 5-20k in one time expenses. Even if they stuck with no relo, they might have extra budget for sign on, which is equivalent. For whatever reason, companies tend to be sticklers for budget allocation, even if total amount equates, even to their bottom line. Relocation assistance might be frowned on as an 'unnecessary' overhead cost ("can we not find good people already in the area?!"), but a higher sign on wouldn't ("it's a competitive market"), despite also being overhead.
    - unishark 5y ago
      No relocation assistance means no guilt when you switch to another job in under a year. Or at least less, if you got a signing bonus too.
- grepfru_it 5y ago
  1. Look on glassdoor, indeed, whatever site you want to use to find out salary expectations in your role/area 2. When asked, give this number as your desired target, but a lot of times they ask about old pay. if the old pay differs greatly, avoid the topic by pointing out how 'the old job requirements are different, benefits are different, etc. But if they press on this number, tell them, don't lie or completely avoid it 3. Assume the hiring manager has 15% over the offer amount. this amount may also impact your future raises, so it may be better to cap your ask at 10%. but don't be afraid to go ham asking more for starting bonus, longer vacation, golden parachute, etc 4. Good luck!
  - dbish 5y ago
    Don’t use Glassdoor for tech. They are almost always incorrect since they are salary focused. Use levels.fyi which understands total compensation
    - taurath 5y ago
      Correct. And assume levels is old data at this point. And don’t be shocked, people really make that much.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - chana_masala 5y ago
      Blind can be another good resource
      - 100-xyz 5y ago
        I discovered Blind recently and agree it's an awesome resource.
    - gentleman11 5y ago
      That site names salaries almost 50-100k higher than what I see on other salary sites in Canada. Does the site only aggregate top paying companies, or is the Canadian tech sector actually way more robust than I thought?
- grepLeigh 5y ago
  https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
- warent 5y ago
  This may sound weird but it's easier to do this when you don't need it. When we're negotiating, people can smell desperation. If you can easily walk away from a negotiation/offer, you're suddenly in a much more powerful position. Once you're there, figure out how much sounds like a lot and ask for even more. Either they'll surprise you and accept the terms, or you will negotiate "down" to the amount that sounded like a lot. Worst case scenario, they don't take the deal and you reject them to go find a new negotiation until you get what you want
  - yosito 5y ago
    This negotiation tactic works fine if you don't have to do full day coding challenges to get to that phase, while also working a full time job.
    - warent 5y ago
      These days I just immediately turn those down without a second thought. It's a joke of an interviewing system and your time is way too valuable for that. Happy to do coding questions, but not 8 hour long take-home projects. Those have screwed me too many times
      - sirmike_ 5y ago
        This is very, very true. I refuse to do coding based interviews. I'm flexible on certain homework. Hell will freeze over before I have to sit through a multi-hour panel and coding session. Like for free? Hit the bricks. Who can just take 4-6 hours out of your normal work day to swing into something like that? Not even germane to my role. The fastest way to avoid companies like that is to set boundaries on what you will do and will not do. Good recruiters LISTEN and respect this. I do not want my time wasted and likewise for the recruiters and companies I am talking too.
      - Rapzid 5y ago
        Teleport has a comically large test. Think 20-40 hours.
- tibbetts 5y ago
  Understand who you are negotiating with. It’s not usually the hiring manager or recruiter who has final say over pay. Figure out who does if you can, and figure out what they care about and need to see or hear. Then equip your contact with the information they need to advocate for paying you what you want. Like if they need a clearer statement about your years of experience, or your other offers, or your alignment with the role.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  You can always ask but another way is to come armed with a job offer. Considering you aren’t classified as “acceptable attrition” you’ll likely get a match or better from your existing employer. Hiring new talent is difficult and expensive so your manager has a lot of incentive to keep you around if you’re good performer. But be warned that if your current company decides to let you go then you probably need to commit to the new company.
- jseliger 5y ago
  https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ (I've not done this as such, but I'm a technical writing consultant and the way you get more money from clients is similar.)
  - mooreds 5y ago
    This article is gold. Also, I enjoy the posts by Josh Doody: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/ https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/
- aleksiy 5y ago
  Just to add my own data point. I studied leetcode for 6 months during covid. Sent about 30 applications interviewed at 10 companies and received 8 offers. 2 of these offers where double my current TC through negotiation. It's not just FAANG but startups making very good offers. I have 3 YOE. For negotiation: Always ask for at least 20% more + a signing bonus Have competing offers Interview well Be willing to walk away. If they can't do it there's another company that will.
  - ramraj07 5y ago
    Could you give rough range of these offers? Would be interested in understanding absolute numbers
    - aleksiy 5y ago
      My lowest offers where 120k CAD Base, 100k USD in options. My best two offers: 200k CAD Base, 390k USD RSU /4 years, 20k CAD Sign on 200k CAD Base, 330k USD in Options / 4 years, 20k CAD Sign on I'm also still waiting on some numbers from Google Canada but I doubt they will match.
      - leratrace 5y ago
        mind naming some of those high-paying ones in Canada? I'll be shopping soon and curious. edit: also in Van.
        aleksiy 5y ago
        Wish is one. Though I'm not a big fan of their product. The other is a Series D startup based in SF
        leratrace 5y ago
        yup - Wish paid a lot in TO as well but then again, their product isn't necessarily appealing.
      - 5y ago
- clavoie 5y ago
  Quite literally: when interviewing, just ask for significantly more than you make. Like, 10-20% more. My background: I'm somewhere around the 20 years of experience mark, a bit more than a quarter of that as a dev at a FAANG, a bit less than a quarter of that as a hiring manager / senior executive for startups (in one case, nearly quadrupling the number of devs in my org in a year; in another, managing a 4-5 dozen devs org). The ideal situation is looking for a job while you have one that you are at least mostly-happy with. Or at least one where you can stay for at least another few months still -- in case you don't get the offers you want. And have a honest idea of how much you should or want to make. Ideal scenario is having close and honest friends that are peers (or even better: hiring managers) in your domain that you are comfortable talking money with. Go through those companies in some order (most excited to least excited if you're in a hurry, least excited to most excited if you want to get the best offer possible) and interview at 1-2 at the same time, in order. Pass the interview at least up to the point where you're talking salary. In my experience, it's rarely upfront, which is an annoying waste of time if the candidate and company are on totally different planets regarding salary expectations, but having been a hiring manager, I get it [1]. Then get offers, or not. As hard as you can without pissing the company off (pissing off a hiring manager is harder than most people think, just be at least somewhat nice and reasonable about the whole thing) -- make sure to skip over HR and talk straight to the hiring manager, before and after the interview [2]. Preferably, ask to book the post-interview meeting during your pre-interview chat, so the hiring manager has extra peer pressure to actually show up "in person" (well, on the phone). Bonus points for reaching out to a senior director or (for a small enough company) a C-level executive on LinkedIn. If you get all offers, you probably are asking less than you should. No offers, much more. 50/50? You're asking just the right amount. Not all refusals are salary-related, but for now, companies can't afford to be too choosy, so overall, market bias should be on your side. It's a time consuming process, but for a lot of people, frankly there's a 10-20% salary hike on the line every few years -- how much time is that worth to you? And don't feel bad for the "poor hiring managers" whose offers you do not accept in the end [3]. Keep in mind most of the advice on the internet is from recruiters and hiring managers that have a vested interested in candidates not shopping around (for a tangentially related topic, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... and think about this topic, hard). Finally, do this every year or two, even if you have no intention of leaving your current place. First, it'll leave a trail of companies (and hiring managers, that may go to a company you're a better fit for) knowing your name and wistfully thinking about the great candidate that got away. And second, it's a great thing to know exactly your worth on the market. I know folks who've doubled their income in less than five years this way. To be fair, there's the (I believe very small) chance that your current employer will hear about your shenanigans -- and that could bite you in the ass in the (very) short term. Personally, I've never seen that, either as a candidate or hiring manager and for me personally, the risk is 100% worth it. Caveat lector. [1] When I hired, I usually had 5-6 roles opened in my budget, and if your interview process proves to me you're a talented but more junior candidate than I hoped for, I might compromise but offer you below the bracket I was thinking about and raise the experience bar for the next hire. I usually have some kind of wiggle room of that nature, wiggle room which mostly disappears if I told you the expected salary bracket upfront. [2] Admittedly, this is significantly easier at smaller company, where a formal HR is oftentimes just not there yet. You'll get significantly better feedback straight from the horse's mouth, including fun statements like "your salary expectation just doesn't fit in my budget"; though that either means you really asked for more than I can afford, or you did not convince me you're worth that much. [3] First, they did a poor job convincing you to work for them and that's explicitly their job during the interview process, whether they know it or not. And second, if the company they hire for is any good, they usually only hire an absolute maximum of 30% of the candidates they interview (usually, much, much less: that FAANG I mentioned way earlier? more like 5%). If they can be choosy, why can't you be? Plus, I remember most of the candidates that I made offers to and said no to me. Not because I'm annoyed at them, but rather (until I left my hiring manager position) because I followed them on social media just in case they said something about their current job being a PITA or otherwise hint they might be looking. Telling a company no is a great way to leave a reputation of being better than they thought, and the good ones will not forget and keep the finger on the offer trigger. Keep in mind the good hiring managers also have a reputation they want to preserve, if they're even half thinking about their own career prospects...
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
On the flip side - I tell recruiters immediately they have to AT LEAST match my current comp. Every single one of them so far has said they can't even get close. If you work at FAANG - your RSUs (most likely) have doubled in about a year. You could easily already be getting paid more than the max offer for the level above where you're currently at.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  Even leaving aside golden handcuffs the number of companies paying top of market seems relatively small. That’s especially true once you get past entry level positions.
  - ditonal 5y ago
    I feel the opposite. A decade ago, it was pretty much Google, Facebook, and some elite trading firms that could pay a ton. Now so many startups have grown up, there’s a huge list of them on levels.FYI that will pay 400k+ for senior and 600k+ for staff. I recently have interviewed for a ton and got rejected a bunch, but I joked with my spouse that there’s so many that by the time you’re done interviewing at all of them you’ve “cooled off” at the original one and can re-interview, so there’s an “infinite loop” of 500k opportunities for experienced SWEs. Despite 90% interview fail, I just accepted a 500k all-liquid offer- despite me not even being at staff level at the company. Hard to say that’s not top of market, and it’s not at a FAANG either. FAANG is also a horrible acronym for the top paying companies since two of those companies don’t even pay that well. Companies like Airbnb, Pinterest, Lyft, LinkedIn and many others will outpay FAANG companies and their equity is fully liquid.
    - sparker72678 5y ago
      Omg I need to up my reqs in my interviews.
      - arthurcolle 5y ago
        Yes. Ask for 620 though, then they come back at 575 and you just minted half of a 150k salary for being shrewd hehe
gentleman11 5y ago
I see a ton of jobs posted for seniors right now but almost none for juniors. Are companies being shy about talent risks right now?
- giantg2 5y ago
  My experience is that this is an ongoing problem. For years there have been relatively few junior positions. No company wants to train people.
  - bpicolo 5y ago
    You need senior engineers in order to scale training people, so it's a catch-22.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      It's only a catch-22 if you don't have the senior people. At least in my experience, companies have 80%+ senior and midlevel developers. The issue is that companies want to be cheap by letting other companies do the training and then taking them.
      - _dark_matter_ 5y ago
        Honestly at this point as a staff level eng, not having junior levels to work with is a big turn-off. I love being able to break down projects in to tasks and not have to carry out every single one of those. Convincing one of my senior-level peers to work on a project or task can be near impossible, while the junior level folks will jump on them.
        hdhjebebeb 5y ago
        Lol I've seen this in action, lots of staff devs being architecture astronauts or diving super deep on a hot new technology, and meanwhile some intern is building the stupid webapp that actually gets used and makes money.
bitcoinmoney 5y ago
Got some RSU vesting November. Should I wait?
- justahuman74 5y ago
  If that's a 1 year cliff, yes
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dbish 5y ago
  Maybe. It might be worth looking, tell any folks with an offer how much you’d lose, and either leave early if they add to it, or accept an offer with a start date after the vest.
mmaunder 5y ago
Exactly this. We just gave all our devs a significant raise - way above the norm, and way way earlier than we would. We're acknowledging the reality of demand, scarcity and wage inflation. My co-founder (also my wife) and I immediately felt our blood pressure drop once we did that. Market conditions are making it hard to retain and very hard to hire. We've done a bunch of other stuff to recruit - which I described in another comment here - and it's making a huge difference. Employers who don't respond to these market conditions are in for a rough ride.
- rubicon33 5y ago
  Kudos for doing the right thing. I hope (and expect) that for you and your business, it is the right thing. Hopefully those devs are quite skilled, and worth keeping around, and will stay and help the business grow! I feel like a lot of times employers think devs are expendable, and while that's true to some extent, devs also can be quite worth paying extra to keep around especially if they've accrued quite a lot of domain knowledge that pertains to your business.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    A past organization of mine just had a big data breach. It would not surprise me if the near complete loss of domain knowledge and institutional knowledge was a contributing factor/cause.
- apozem 5y ago
  That is very smart. My old employer gave me a 3% raise in January and tried to make it some big gift. I left anyway in April for a 50% bump. New company, same level of responsibilities. The old employer underpays everyone, so that percentage is higher than it otherwise would be, but still.
  - 1991g 5y ago
    Current employer just gave me 5%. I'm interviewing for ~30%. /shrug
mgh2 5y ago
Non-paywall please
davidw 5y ago
Yep. I got burned out, quit, took some time off and then got an offer that's a nice raise. I think it's healthy for all of us to reflect on how fortunate we are in this field, sometimes.
skeeter2020 5y ago
We just gave our devs relatively modest increases, and only one raised any objections and ended up with a more than a 15% increase. I worry about all those devs who won't say anything (why should they have to?) and will just go somewhere else for a 20% bump.
- crooked-v 5y ago
  > why should they have to? This has been one of the driving motivations behind literally every job change I've gone through since I started working in the software field.
  - wyclif 5y ago
    It's because experienced SWE's know that the easiest, most frictionless way to get a significant increase is to change jobs.
    - designium 5y ago
      This.
- blahyawnblah 5y ago
  You can get good raises by changing jobs. You can also get good raises by talking to your manager. Don't be passive about the income that you get.
  - smorgusofborg 5y ago
    It's really better to push yourself to know the changes in hiring and be getting job offers every 2 years, taking one most of the time. The things you do internal to a company are mostly risks for eventually dropping out. I.e. you end up in a position you have never seen a cold interview for.
noleetcode 5y ago
I'd love to, as I'm really tired of my current employer, and they're definitely taking advantage of me, but I resolved to never waste my time with leetcode garbage again... which means I either stay where I'm at, or exit the industry entirely.
- mooreds 5y ago
  What? Do you have former co-workers who have moved on who'd love to have you at their new place? If so, I bet they can help you get past the coding tests.
  - noleetcode 5y ago
    Unfortunately the people I have (had?) a good enough relationship with where I feel like I could ask for favors like that just moved on to other big tech companies that all do the same leetcode hazing. Definitely would have been something I'd have tried otherwise though.
    - mooreds 5y ago
      Well, these folks may know folks at places that don't do the hazing. I'd reach out if I were you and "just have a coffee" and explain you're looking but want to avoid the leetcode grind. They may have some advice or connections. An alternative is to grow your connections by going to meetups or something similar (I know, more unpaid labor! But it will pay off.) After 2-3 months, you should know the regulars and can have the same conversation with them. For bonus points, offer to help out--meetups I've encountered are usually looking for some kind of help, whether that be running a meeting, finding sponsors, helping speakers or something else (even, in the before times, setup and teardown of chairs/meeting space).
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  what is it about leetcode that makes it a waste of time?
  - 5y ago
Tade0 5y ago
A while ago I switched to a role that was interesting, but involved a decrease in compensation, but not a month had passed and I was included in a company-wide pay increase. Overall currently I don't hate my job anymore and the salary is slightly better. Best decision I made this year.
samstave 5y ago
A buddy of mine who is a cissp just move jobs, got a 30k raise and a 100k signing bonus
ergocoder 5y ago
I'm at a FAANG-like company with 1m USD TC because of stock appreciation. Where would I get a job like this? I hate my job a little but the hate is not strong enough for me to leave a 1m TC job for a lower TC. I'm stuck basically. I'll be gone after 4y definitely
- sjs7007 5y ago
  Jesus, how much did the stock rise? What was your TC before appreciation?
  - ergocoder 5y ago
    4-5x. The initial offer was around 490k a year. ~50% is stock. The stock can 3x more.. so I'm holding and hopeful.
- californical 5y ago
  At a point, probably really soon, you’ll have enough money that you’ll never need to work again. With that type of salary, I’d be surprised if it was more than 2 years. Don’t stay in a job you hate just to earn money that you don’t really need anymore! Though I admit, it’s hard to imagine walking away from 1m per year, even if you don’t necessarily need it...
  - ergocoder 5y ago
    It is a gold rush era. I recognize that this is a rare opportunity. 1m for a senior (not staff) engineer is very hard to come by.
  - hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
    Yeah, for 1M/yr I would put up with a fair amount of bullshit.
  - wdb 5y ago
    Yeah, key is to find a job you can add value :) And by my experience if you don't need to work, live gets really boring quickly. All your friends are at work, can only do such travel, if you do your hobby 8/5 a week it gets boring.
MichaelMoser123 5y ago
I am very sceptical of the article, the fundamentals of most companies didn't change drastically. It seems unlikely that they would suddenly be able to cover all these expenses, in the form of larger sallaries. The article mentions the dot-com era, now that escape from reality didn't last very long.
cweill 5y ago
What's well paid for FAANG senior? 300k? 400k? $500k+? Are levels.fyi's numbers out of date?
WalterBright 5y ago
It's interesting reading this thread after the scores (hundreds?) of previous threads saying one cannot negotiate with employers because of power and information asymmetry.
- epinephrinios 5y ago
  It's the only time the candidate has more power than the employer because the latter showed their hands.
- unishark 5y ago
  Society has moved beyond possibility/impossibility (i.e. behaviors prohibited by law and lack of opportunity) and we've moved on to decrying the emotional difficulty in doing things that are hard because they feel awkward or uncomfortable, like asserting one's self and asking for a raise.

by dbish 5y ago

throwawaysleep 5y ago

For those of you who have done this, how do you maximise your compensation? Tips appreciated.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25092246 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25092246
- throwawaysleep 5y ago
  > That means doing getting multiple offers within the same time period before you accept one. I need help on getting to the salary negotiation part with multiple companies at the same time though. This is the instruction booklet for landing a lunar lander on the Moon. I need the one for the Saturn V.
  - grepfru_it 5y ago
    Accept offer A. Receive offer B. If offer B > offer A, let company A know something has come up and you cannot continue employment. Accept offer B. Lather, rinse, repeat for each offer. The better offer may be salary, perks, or just better work conditions. I once left a company after working there for 9 days because I got an offer working with my friend. I didn't even get a better salary and my friend ended up leaving after 3 months..
    - axpy906 5y ago
      That’s not how to do it. You get offer A and B then push them to bid on you. Having competing offers gives you leverage, use that to get the best employment terms.
    - aix1 5y ago
      I think that's a recipe for becoming unemployable.
      - grepfru_it 5y ago
        You obviously stop at some point, a 6 month gap on your resume is not a good look.
  - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
    A lesson I did not learn: I dedicated each lunch hour every day for a couple of months ringing up companies and agencies. I moved jobs three times and doubled my salary in that year - which seemed good. Then I attended a seminar - the question was asked who used agencies and who used their "network" for new jobs / freelance work. I was the only hand up to go used agencies and the traditional job hunt. So it's the old saw - keep a profile up - blog, project, podcast whatever, so you can use that as an excuse to stay in touch with ex-colleagues so that they might think of you when they are hiring in 3 years. As I said not a lesson I have learned but people who earn more than me recommend it
    - mooreds 5y ago
      And don't dismiss LinkedIn! It's a rolodex other people keep up to date. Log on once a week and like posts by other folks (job posts, interesting articles, whatever). Send a congrats message as suggested by LI when someone starts a new job. Send someone a job that seems like it might be of interest to them when you see it. Post something you wrote/built/read about. The goal is to keep in touch so that when you are ready to start looking, you aren't starting from ground zero.
  - avidiax 5y ago
    1st: interviewing is a game. Treat it as such. Leetcode like hell. Tune your behavioral responses to the stated principles of the target company, and your experience/resume to the needs of that company. 2nd: Submitting resumes goes nowhere. You need referrals. Ask for them shamelessly. You don't need to know the referee. That will at least get your resume looked at. This is their game, so play it. 3rd: have an idea of the timeline to an offer for various companies. Do your Google/Facebook interviews early, more nimble companies later. Start the whole thing off with some practice interviews at companies you don't like. The goal is to have multiple offers in play at the same time. 4th: Don't tell recruiters about your other offers until it's too late and they've decided that they want you. Only tell them about offers that they might compete against (usually their direct competitors), 2 others max. If you'd work at company A for $80 b/c they have a cool product, but would need $100 to work at company B b/c they suck, when you tell company B about your offer at company A, fudge that company's numbers upward. Otherwise, you'll get an offer for $81 from company B and turn them down.
lostcolony 5y ago
Ask for it. Seriously. I interviewed with one company, things went well, I was interested, but they came out of the gate with total comp that was lower than I was looking for. They were looking at a stock grant of X over 4 years. That would have worked, provided that I was basically guaranteed a refresher each year for X (so that by year 4 I'd making X per year in RSUs). I found out that refreshers were usually not for that amount, and not guaranteed (barring performance issues). I indicated I was looking for X per year in RSUs (given the salary and bonus they were looking to offer). The recruiter was a bit shocked, but went and asked anyway...she came back with an offer granting 4X RSUs upfront, meaning, yeah, I'd be getting X every year, starting from year 1. And I'd still be eligible for refreshers and whatnot each year.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  I learned to ask for things just a bit too late. For my current role, the job description explicitly noted there would be no relocation assistance. I ended up paying for my move out of pocket. They were actually looking for two people for the role I was applying to. After starting, I met the other guy that was hired a few months before me. He had moved from even further than I had. After talking, he mentioned he was given relocation assistance. When I asked him about the explicit mention that that would not be offered. He simply told me he noticed it, but asked anyway and got it.
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    Expensive lesson, but a useful one. A good candidate who is willing to sign is too valuable to pass on just because they're asking for 5-20k in one time expenses. Even if they stuck with no relo, they might have extra budget for sign on, which is equivalent. For whatever reason, companies tend to be sticklers for budget allocation, even if total amount equates, even to their bottom line. Relocation assistance might be frowned on as an 'unnecessary' overhead cost ("can we not find good people already in the area?!"), but a higher sign on wouldn't ("it's a competitive market"), despite also being overhead.
  - unishark 5y ago
    No relocation assistance means no guilt when you switch to another job in under a year. Or at least less, if you got a signing bonus too.
grepfru_it 5y ago
1. Look on glassdoor, indeed, whatever site you want to use to find out salary expectations in your role/area 2. When asked, give this number as your desired target, but a lot of times they ask about old pay. if the old pay differs greatly, avoid the topic by pointing out how 'the old job requirements are different, benefits are different, etc. But if they press on this number, tell them, don't lie or completely avoid it 3. Assume the hiring manager has 15% over the offer amount. this amount may also impact your future raises, so it may be better to cap your ask at 10%. but don't be afraid to go ham asking more for starting bonus, longer vacation, golden parachute, etc 4. Good luck!
- dbish 5y ago
  Don’t use Glassdoor for tech. They are almost always incorrect since they are salary focused. Use levels.fyi which understands total compensation
  - taurath 5y ago
    Correct. And assume levels is old data at this point. And don’t be shocked, people really make that much.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - chana_masala 5y ago
    Blind can be another good resource
    - 100-xyz 5y ago
      I discovered Blind recently and agree it's an awesome resource.
  - gentleman11 5y ago
    That site names salaries almost 50-100k higher than what I see on other salary sites in Canada. Does the site only aggregate top paying companies, or is the Canadian tech sector actually way more robust than I thought?
grepLeigh 5y ago
https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
warent 5y ago
This may sound weird but it's easier to do this when you don't need it. When we're negotiating, people can smell desperation. If you can easily walk away from a negotiation/offer, you're suddenly in a much more powerful position. Once you're there, figure out how much sounds like a lot and ask for even more. Either they'll surprise you and accept the terms, or you will negotiate "down" to the amount that sounded like a lot. Worst case scenario, they don't take the deal and you reject them to go find a new negotiation until you get what you want
- yosito 5y ago
  This negotiation tactic works fine if you don't have to do full day coding challenges to get to that phase, while also working a full time job.
  - warent 5y ago
    These days I just immediately turn those down without a second thought. It's a joke of an interviewing system and your time is way too valuable for that. Happy to do coding questions, but not 8 hour long take-home projects. Those have screwed me too many times
    - sirmike_ 5y ago
      This is very, very true. I refuse to do coding based interviews. I'm flexible on certain homework. Hell will freeze over before I have to sit through a multi-hour panel and coding session. Like for free? Hit the bricks. Who can just take 4-6 hours out of your normal work day to swing into something like that? Not even germane to my role. The fastest way to avoid companies like that is to set boundaries on what you will do and will not do. Good recruiters LISTEN and respect this. I do not want my time wasted and likewise for the recruiters and companies I am talking too.
    - Rapzid 5y ago
      Teleport has a comically large test. Think 20-40 hours.
tibbetts 5y ago
Understand who you are negotiating with. It’s not usually the hiring manager or recruiter who has final say over pay. Figure out who does if you can, and figure out what they care about and need to see or hear. Then equip your contact with the information they need to advocate for paying you what you want. Like if they need a clearer statement about your years of experience, or your other offers, or your alignment with the role.
nemo44x 5y ago
You can always ask but another way is to come armed with a job offer. Considering you aren’t classified as “acceptable attrition” you’ll likely get a match or better from your existing employer. Hiring new talent is difficult and expensive so your manager has a lot of incentive to keep you around if you’re good performer. But be warned that if your current company decides to let you go then you probably need to commit to the new company.
jseliger 5y ago
https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ (I've not done this as such, but I'm a technical writing consultant and the way you get more money from clients is similar.)
- mooreds 5y ago
  This article is gold. Also, I enjoy the posts by Josh Doody: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/ https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/
aleksiy 5y ago
Just to add my own data point. I studied leetcode for 6 months during covid. Sent about 30 applications interviewed at 10 companies and received 8 offers. 2 of these offers where double my current TC through negotiation. It's not just FAANG but startups making very good offers. I have 3 YOE. For negotiation: Always ask for at least 20% more + a signing bonus Have competing offers Interview well Be willing to walk away. If they can't do it there's another company that will.
- ramraj07 5y ago
  Could you give rough range of these offers? Would be interested in understanding absolute numbers
  - aleksiy 5y ago
    My lowest offers where 120k CAD Base, 100k USD in options. My best two offers: 200k CAD Base, 390k USD RSU /4 years, 20k CAD Sign on 200k CAD Base, 330k USD in Options / 4 years, 20k CAD Sign on I'm also still waiting on some numbers from Google Canada but I doubt they will match.
    - leratrace 5y ago
      mind naming some of those high-paying ones in Canada? I'll be shopping soon and curious. edit: also in Van.
      - aleksiy 5y ago
        Wish is one. Though I'm not a big fan of their product. The other is a Series D startup based in SF
        leratrace 5y ago
        yup - Wish paid a lot in TO as well but then again, their product isn't necessarily appealing.
    - 5y ago
clavoie 5y ago
Quite literally: when interviewing, just ask for significantly more than you make. Like, 10-20% more. My background: I'm somewhere around the 20 years of experience mark, a bit more than a quarter of that as a dev at a FAANG, a bit less than a quarter of that as a hiring manager / senior executive for startups (in one case, nearly quadrupling the number of devs in my org in a year; in another, managing a 4-5 dozen devs org). The ideal situation is looking for a job while you have one that you are at least mostly-happy with. Or at least one where you can stay for at least another few months still -- in case you don't get the offers you want. And have a honest idea of how much you should or want to make. Ideal scenario is having close and honest friends that are peers (or even better: hiring managers) in your domain that you are comfortable talking money with. Go through those companies in some order (most excited to least excited if you're in a hurry, least excited to most excited if you want to get the best offer possible) and interview at 1-2 at the same time, in order. Pass the interview at least up to the point where you're talking salary. In my experience, it's rarely upfront, which is an annoying waste of time if the candidate and company are on totally different planets regarding salary expectations, but having been a hiring manager, I get it [1]. Then get offers, or not. As hard as you can without pissing the company off (pissing off a hiring manager is harder than most people think, just be at least somewhat nice and reasonable about the whole thing) -- make sure to skip over HR and talk straight to the hiring manager, before and after the interview [2]. Preferably, ask to book the post-interview meeting during your pre-interview chat, so the hiring manager has extra peer pressure to actually show up "in person" (well, on the phone). Bonus points for reaching out to a senior director or (for a small enough company) a C-level executive on LinkedIn. If you get all offers, you probably are asking less than you should. No offers, much more. 50/50? You're asking just the right amount. Not all refusals are salary-related, but for now, companies can't afford to be too choosy, so overall, market bias should be on your side. It's a time consuming process, but for a lot of people, frankly there's a 10-20% salary hike on the line every few years -- how much time is that worth to you? And don't feel bad for the "poor hiring managers" whose offers you do not accept in the end [3]. Keep in mind most of the advice on the internet is from recruiters and hiring managers that have a vested interested in candidates not shopping around (for a tangentially related topic, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... and think about this topic, hard). Finally, do this every year or two, even if you have no intention of leaving your current place. First, it'll leave a trail of companies (and hiring managers, that may go to a company you're a better fit for) knowing your name and wistfully thinking about the great candidate that got away. And second, it's a great thing to know exactly your worth on the market. I know folks who've doubled their income in less than five years this way. To be fair, there's the (I believe very small) chance that your current employer will hear about your shenanigans -- and that could bite you in the ass in the (very) short term. Personally, I've never seen that, either as a candidate or hiring manager and for me personally, the risk is 100% worth it. Caveat lector. [1] When I hired, I usually had 5-6 roles opened in my budget, and if your interview process proves to me you're a talented but more junior candidate than I hoped for, I might compromise but offer you below the bracket I was thinking about and raise the experience bar for the next hire. I usually have some kind of wiggle room of that nature, wiggle room which mostly disappears if I told you the expected salary bracket upfront. [2] Admittedly, this is significantly easier at smaller company, where a formal HR is oftentimes just not there yet. You'll get significantly better feedback straight from the horse's mouth, including fun statements like "your salary expectation just doesn't fit in my budget"; though that either means you really asked for more than I can afford, or you did not convince me you're worth that much. [3] First, they did a poor job convincing you to work for them and that's explicitly their job during the interview process, whether they know it or not. And second, if the company they hire for is any good, they usually only hire an absolute maximum of 30% of the candidates they interview (usually, much, much less: that FAANG I mentioned way earlier? more like 5%). If they can be choosy, why can't you be? Plus, I remember most of the candidates that I made offers to and said no to me. Not because I'm annoyed at them, but rather (until I left my hiring manager position) because I followed them on social media just in case they said something about their current job being a PITA or otherwise hint they might be looking. Telling a company no is a great way to leave a reputation of being better than they thought, and the good ones will not forget and keep the finger on the offer trigger. Keep in mind the good hiring managers also have a reputation they want to preserve, if they're even half thinking about their own career prospects...

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

On the flip side - I tell recruiters immediately they have to AT LEAST match my current comp. Every single one of them so far has said they can't even get close. If you work at FAANG - your RSUs (most likely) have doubled in about a year. You could easily already be getting paid more than the max offer for the level above where you're currently at.

bradleyjg 5y ago
Even leaving aside golden handcuffs the number of companies paying top of market seems relatively small. That’s especially true once you get past entry level positions.
- ditonal 5y ago
  I feel the opposite. A decade ago, it was pretty much Google, Facebook, and some elite trading firms that could pay a ton. Now so many startups have grown up, there’s a huge list of them on levels.FYI that will pay 400k+ for senior and 600k+ for staff. I recently have interviewed for a ton and got rejected a bunch, but I joked with my spouse that there’s so many that by the time you’re done interviewing at all of them you’ve “cooled off” at the original one and can re-interview, so there’s an “infinite loop” of 500k opportunities for experienced SWEs. Despite 90% interview fail, I just accepted a 500k all-liquid offer- despite me not even being at staff level at the company. Hard to say that’s not top of market, and it’s not at a FAANG either. FAANG is also a horrible acronym for the top paying companies since two of those companies don’t even pay that well. Companies like Airbnb, Pinterest, Lyft, LinkedIn and many others will outpay FAANG companies and their equity is fully liquid.
  - sparker72678 5y ago
    Omg I need to up my reqs in my interviews.
    - arthurcolle 5y ago
      Yes. Ask for 620 though, then they come back at 575 and you just minted half of a 150k salary for being shrewd hehe

gentleman11 5y ago

I see a ton of jobs posted for seniors right now but almost none for juniors. Are companies being shy about talent risks right now?

giantg2 5y ago
My experience is that this is an ongoing problem. For years there have been relatively few junior positions. No company wants to train people.
- bpicolo 5y ago
  You need senior engineers in order to scale training people, so it's a catch-22.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    It's only a catch-22 if you don't have the senior people. At least in my experience, companies have 80%+ senior and midlevel developers. The issue is that companies want to be cheap by letting other companies do the training and then taking them.
    - _dark_matter_ 5y ago
      Honestly at this point as a staff level eng, not having junior levels to work with is a big turn-off. I love being able to break down projects in to tasks and not have to carry out every single one of those. Convincing one of my senior-level peers to work on a project or task can be near impossible, while the junior level folks will jump on them.
      - hdhjebebeb 5y ago
        Lol I've seen this in action, lots of staff devs being architecture astronauts or diving super deep on a hot new technology, and meanwhile some intern is building the stupid webapp that actually gets used and makes money.

bitcoinmoney 5y ago

Got some RSU vesting November. Should I wait?

justahuman74 5y ago
If that's a 1 year cliff, yes
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dbish 5y ago
Maybe. It might be worth looking, tell any folks with an offer how much you’d lose, and either leave early if they add to it, or accept an offer with a start date after the vest.

mmaunder 5y ago

Exactly this. We just gave all our devs a significant raise - way above the norm, and way way earlier than we would. We're acknowledging the reality of demand, scarcity and wage inflation. My co-founder (also my wife) and I immediately felt our blood pressure drop once we did that. Market conditions are making it hard to retain and very hard to hire. We've done a bunch of other stuff to recruit - which I described in another comment here - and it's making a huge difference. Employers who don't respond to these market conditions are in for a rough ride.

rubicon33 5y ago
Kudos for doing the right thing. I hope (and expect) that for you and your business, it is the right thing. Hopefully those devs are quite skilled, and worth keeping around, and will stay and help the business grow! I feel like a lot of times employers think devs are expendable, and while that's true to some extent, devs also can be quite worth paying extra to keep around especially if they've accrued quite a lot of domain knowledge that pertains to your business.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  A past organization of mine just had a big data breach. It would not surprise me if the near complete loss of domain knowledge and institutional knowledge was a contributing factor/cause.
apozem 5y ago
That is very smart. My old employer gave me a 3% raise in January and tried to make it some big gift. I left anyway in April for a 50% bump. New company, same level of responsibilities. The old employer underpays everyone, so that percentage is higher than it otherwise would be, but still.
- 1991g 5y ago
  Current employer just gave me 5%. I'm interviewing for ~30%. /shrug

mgh2 5y ago

Non-paywall please

davidw 5y ago

Yep. I got burned out, quit, took some time off and then got an offer that's a nice raise. I think it's healthy for all of us to reflect on how fortunate we are in this field, sometimes.

skeeter2020 5y ago

We just gave our devs relatively modest increases, and only one raised any objections and ended up with a more than a 15% increase. I worry about all those devs who won't say anything (why should they have to?) and will just go somewhere else for a 20% bump.

crooked-v 5y ago
> why should they have to? This has been one of the driving motivations behind literally every job change I've gone through since I started working in the software field.
- wyclif 5y ago
  It's because experienced SWE's know that the easiest, most frictionless way to get a significant increase is to change jobs.
  - designium 5y ago
    This.
blahyawnblah 5y ago
You can get good raises by changing jobs. You can also get good raises by talking to your manager. Don't be passive about the income that you get.
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  It's really better to push yourself to know the changes in hiring and be getting job offers every 2 years, taking one most of the time. The things you do internal to a company are mostly risks for eventually dropping out. I.e. you end up in a position you have never seen a cold interview for.

noleetcode 5y ago

I'd love to, as I'm really tired of my current employer, and they're definitely taking advantage of me, but I resolved to never waste my time with leetcode garbage again... which means I either stay where I'm at, or exit the industry entirely.

mooreds 5y ago
What? Do you have former co-workers who have moved on who'd love to have you at their new place? If so, I bet they can help you get past the coding tests.
- noleetcode 5y ago
  Unfortunately the people I have (had?) a good enough relationship with where I feel like I could ask for favors like that just moved on to other big tech companies that all do the same leetcode hazing. Definitely would have been something I'd have tried otherwise though.
  - mooreds 5y ago
    Well, these folks may know folks at places that don't do the hazing. I'd reach out if I were you and "just have a coffee" and explain you're looking but want to avoid the leetcode grind. They may have some advice or connections. An alternative is to grow your connections by going to meetups or something similar (I know, more unpaid labor! But it will pay off.) After 2-3 months, you should know the regulars and can have the same conversation with them. For bonus points, offer to help out--meetups I've encountered are usually looking for some kind of help, whether that be running a meeting, finding sponsors, helping speakers or something else (even, in the before times, setup and teardown of chairs/meeting space).
inter_netuser 5y ago
what is it about leetcode that makes it a waste of time?
- 5y ago

Tade0 5y ago

A while ago I switched to a role that was interesting, but involved a decrease in compensation, but not a month had passed and I was included in a company-wide pay increase. Overall currently I don't hate my job anymore and the salary is slightly better. Best decision I made this year.

samstave 5y ago

A buddy of mine who is a cissp just move jobs, got a 30k raise and a 100k signing bonus

ergocoder 5y ago

I'm at a FAANG-like company with 1m USD TC because of stock appreciation. Where would I get a job like this? I hate my job a little but the hate is not strong enough for me to leave a 1m TC job for a lower TC. I'm stuck basically. I'll be gone after 4y definitely

sjs7007 5y ago
Jesus, how much did the stock rise? What was your TC before appreciation?
- ergocoder 5y ago
  4-5x. The initial offer was around 490k a year. ~50% is stock. The stock can 3x more.. so I'm holding and hopeful.
californical 5y ago
At a point, probably really soon, you’ll have enough money that you’ll never need to work again. With that type of salary, I’d be surprised if it was more than 2 years. Don’t stay in a job you hate just to earn money that you don’t really need anymore! Though I admit, it’s hard to imagine walking away from 1m per year, even if you don’t necessarily need it...
- ergocoder 5y ago
  It is a gold rush era. I recognize that this is a rare opportunity. 1m for a senior (not staff) engineer is very hard to come by.
- hn_go_brrrrr 5y ago
  Yeah, for 1M/yr I would put up with a fair amount of bullshit.
- wdb 5y ago
  Yeah, key is to find a job you can add value :) And by my experience if you don't need to work, live gets really boring quickly. All your friends are at work, can only do such travel, if you do your hobby 8/5 a week it gets boring.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

I am very sceptical of the article, the fundamentals of most companies didn't change drastically. It seems unlikely that they would suddenly be able to cover all these expenses, in the form of larger sallaries. The article mentions the dot-com era, now that escape from reality didn't last very long.

cweill 5y ago

What's well paid for FAANG senior? 300k? 400k? $500k+? Are levels.fyi's numbers out of date?

WalterBright 5y ago

It's interesting reading this thread after the scores (hundreds?) of previous threads saying one cannot negotiate with employers because of power and information asymmetry.

epinephrinios 5y ago
It's the only time the candidate has more power than the employer because the latter showed their hands.
unishark 5y ago
Society has moved beyond possibility/impossibility (i.e. behaviors prohibited by law and lack of opportunity) and we've moved on to decrying the emotional difficulty in doing things that are hard because they feel awkward or uncomfortable, like asserting one's self and asking for a raise.