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And yet the climate change deniers will find a way. I don’t see why this has to be made into such a political issue when we have hard numbers and objective fact

And yet the climate change deniers will find a way. I don’t see why this has to be made into such a political issue when we have hard numbers and objective facts to back up the claim that we are causing global warming, it’s clearly observable. The situation gets worse every passing year and we’re still trying to appease the “doubters”. Concrete and drastic measures need to be taken, it is high time.

OrvalWintermute 5y ago
> a political issue > climate change deniers > appease the “doubters” I'm not sure if you're going to convince people about the correctness of a position if you utilize name-calling with negative connontations. That kind of approach is frankly unproductive.
celeritascelery 5y ago
In my experience, the reason climate change doubters are so opposed is because of the “concrete and drastic measures” proposed. It has very little to do with “hard numbers and objective facts”. People are reluctant to give up their lifestyle or lose a job for the sake of “global warming”, so they focus on the possibility of it not being real instead.
- sprafa 5y ago
  69% of Americans believe climate change is real. https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans... That's an overwhelming majority. The 'doubt' is media-created FUD being replicated to pretend to be an issue.
  - prophesi 5y ago
    Conversely, 31% of Americans don't believe in climate change, which would be over 100 million people. That's pretty concerning. Though I also completely agree that the division is further exacerbated by the media.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      Apparently more USAians believe in climate change than evolution. Not sure if it's reassuring or scary.
    - lumost 5y ago
      20% of Americans believe almost anything under the sun (although it’s a different 20% for each issue). Demanding 100% belief in climate change to accomplish something is not the best strategy.
      - prophesi 5y ago
        That's fair, though you need people to understand the facts before you can even start the discussion. And it doesn't help that it's a partisan issue in the USA's broken two-party system, ensuring that the discussion gets nowhere.
- mekoka 5y ago
  Identifying a phenomenon and its causes doesn't necessarily mean that you know how to address it. It's a common fallacy. Questioning prognostical conclusions and recommendations made based on not a single data point (we don't know of another planet that went through something similar) is a valid stance. Scientists have been wrong before. I remember Allan Savory confessing his regrets to the killings of thousands of elephants in an effort to prevent desertification, only for things to get worse. Later they realized that the ancillary effects of their grazing activities were actually contributing to slowing down and even reversing desertification.
sprafa 5y ago
69% of Americans believe climate change is real. https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans-underestimate-how-many-others-in-the-u-s-think-global-warming-is-happening/ https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans... That's an overwhelming majority. The 'doubt' is media-created FUD being replicated to pretend to be an issue. The issue is not the population, who overwhelmingly agree this is a problem. The problem is the ruling class does not want anything sudden to be done that would endanger their investments, and rapid change away from fossil fuels and other climate-change causing investments is a danger to their interests. A huge amount of issues in the world are manipulated to look like issues by the media. Don't fall for it!
- runlevel1 5y ago
  But only 55% of Americans believe it to be human-caused. From the actual report [^1]: > A majority of Americans (55%) understand that global warming is mostly human-caused. By contrast, only about one in three (32%) think it is due mostly to natural changes in the environment. The remaining 13% presumably answered "don't know" -- so there's at least some hope of reaching up to 68%. However, even if that 13% is won over, there's still another big barrier to meaningful legislation: Anthropogenic skepticism is over-represented in congress.[^2] Every state gets 2 senators regardless of population, and the more populous states tend to already have senators that believe it is caused by humans. [1]: https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Climate_Change_American_Mind_April_2019c.pdf https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/201... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/22/us-senate-man-climate-change-global-warming-hoax https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/22/us-senat...
  - sprafa 5y ago
    That's the evidence that the climate change "doubters" are really concentrated on the decision-making/ruling elite. But the reason for that is simple - if you don't support climate-change legislation you get more funding. This is what I meant about the ruling class protecting its interests. It's not hard to see.
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vixen99 5y ago
So what about China and other Asian countries who demonstrate by their actions that they've 'found a way'? They say one thing but do another, using many means to encourage the West to adopt policies that will increase energy costs while continuing to build coal-fired power plants themselves. Now why would they do that? In 2020, China brought 38 gigawatts of new coal-fired power into operation, more than three times what was brought on line everywhere else. Seems they're not quite on board with the idea that 'concrete and drastic measures need to be taken'. Clearly they don't think there is an existential threat. And they can hardly be accused of being ignorant of the science.
- lumost 5y ago
  Many economies that were considered developing during the Kyoto accords are now large economies but still pretending that they need to be excluded from such climate provisions.
- KONAir 5y ago
  Why is this being burried? Is there even any doubt about China's edge had been and still is ignoring envorimental sanctions and outright denying workers rights?
  - trasz 5y ago
    Because it’s blatantly false. Just take a look at how many nuclear power plants are being built in China, and compare with eg the US.
mekoka 5y ago
I think climate change and the human factor are very easy to accept. Although, some years ago after listening to Freeman Dyson on the topic, I became aware that acknowledging the phenomenon doesn't imply that we necessarily also know where it will lead and what to do about it. Yet, many of the proponents are acting exactly as such, pushing their own agenda. Hence all the ensuing politics.
gadjo95 5y ago
> The Princeton University researchers behind the paper found that there's a less than 1 percent probability that the changes occurred naturally. "So you're telling me there is still a chance" - Dumb & Dumber

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

> a political issue > climate change deniers > appease the “doubters” I'm not sure if you're going to convince people about the correctness of a position if you utilize name-calling with negative connontations. That kind of approach is frankly unproductive.

celeritascelery 5y ago

In my experience, the reason climate change doubters are so opposed is because of the “concrete and drastic measures” proposed. It has very little to do with “hard numbers and objective facts”. People are reluctant to give up their lifestyle or lose a job for the sake of “global warming”, so they focus on the possibility of it not being real instead.

sprafa 5y ago
69% of Americans believe climate change is real. https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans... That's an overwhelming majority. The 'doubt' is media-created FUD being replicated to pretend to be an issue.
- prophesi 5y ago
  Conversely, 31% of Americans don't believe in climate change, which would be over 100 million people. That's pretty concerning. Though I also completely agree that the division is further exacerbated by the media.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Apparently more USAians believe in climate change than evolution. Not sure if it's reassuring or scary.
  - lumost 5y ago
    20% of Americans believe almost anything under the sun (although it’s a different 20% for each issue). Demanding 100% belief in climate change to accomplish something is not the best strategy.
    - prophesi 5y ago
      That's fair, though you need people to understand the facts before you can even start the discussion. And it doesn't help that it's a partisan issue in the USA's broken two-party system, ensuring that the discussion gets nowhere.
mekoka 5y ago
Identifying a phenomenon and its causes doesn't necessarily mean that you know how to address it. It's a common fallacy. Questioning prognostical conclusions and recommendations made based on not a single data point (we don't know of another planet that went through something similar) is a valid stance. Scientists have been wrong before. I remember Allan Savory confessing his regrets to the killings of thousands of elephants in an effort to prevent desertification, only for things to get worse. Later they realized that the ancillary effects of their grazing activities were actually contributing to slowing down and even reversing desertification.

sprafa 5y ago

69% of Americans believe climate change is real. https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans-underestimate-how-many-others-in-the-u-s-think-global-warming-is-happening/ https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/americans... That's an overwhelming majority. The 'doubt' is media-created FUD being replicated to pretend to be an issue. The issue is not the population, who overwhelmingly agree this is a problem. The problem is the ruling class does not want anything sudden to be done that would endanger their investments, and rapid change away from fossil fuels and other climate-change causing investments is a danger to their interests. A huge amount of issues in the world are manipulated to look like issues by the media. Don't fall for it!

runlevel1 5y ago
But only 55% of Americans believe it to be human-caused. From the actual report [^1]: > A majority of Americans (55%) understand that global warming is mostly human-caused. By contrast, only about one in three (32%) think it is due mostly to natural changes in the environment. The remaining 13% presumably answered "don't know" -- so there's at least some hope of reaching up to 68%. However, even if that 13% is won over, there's still another big barrier to meaningful legislation: Anthropogenic skepticism is over-represented in congress.[^2] Every state gets 2 senators regardless of population, and the more populous states tend to already have senators that believe it is caused by humans. [1]: https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Climate_Change_American_Mind_April_2019c.pdf https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/wp-content/uploads/201... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/22/us-senate-man-climate-change-global-warming-hoax https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/22/us-senat...
- sprafa 5y ago
  That's the evidence that the climate change "doubters" are really concentrated on the decision-making/ruling elite. But the reason for that is simple - if you don't support climate-change legislation you get more funding. This is what I meant about the ruling class protecting its interests. It's not hard to see.
OrvalWintermute 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vixen99 5y ago

So what about China and other Asian countries who demonstrate by their actions that they've 'found a way'? They say one thing but do another, using many means to encourage the West to adopt policies that will increase energy costs while continuing to build coal-fired power plants themselves. Now why would they do that? In 2020, China brought 38 gigawatts of new coal-fired power into operation, more than three times what was brought on line everywhere else. Seems they're not quite on board with the idea that 'concrete and drastic measures need to be taken'. Clearly they don't think there is an existential threat. And they can hardly be accused of being ignorant of the science.

lumost 5y ago
Many economies that were considered developing during the Kyoto accords are now large economies but still pretending that they need to be excluded from such climate provisions.
KONAir 5y ago
Why is this being burried? Is there even any doubt about China's edge had been and still is ignoring envorimental sanctions and outright denying workers rights?
- trasz 5y ago
  Because it’s blatantly false. Just take a look at how many nuclear power plants are being built in China, and compare with eg the US.

mekoka 5y ago

I think climate change and the human factor are very easy to accept. Although, some years ago after listening to Freeman Dyson on the topic, I became aware that acknowledging the phenomenon doesn't imply that we necessarily also know where it will lead and what to do about it. Yet, many of the proponents are acting exactly as such, pushing their own agenda. Hence all the ensuing politics.

gadjo95 5y ago

> The Princeton University researchers behind the paper found that there's a less than 1 percent probability that the changes occurred naturally. "So you're telling me there is still a chance" - Dumb & Dumber