4 ms·

If printers can do this, then why wasn't it done with ballots? It would make auditing possible to have each paper ballot a unique id.

sircastor 5y ago
Ballots are tricky. In the US, You want to ensure anonymity while also ensuring the voters franchise is not threatened. If we want them to be uniquely identifiable, then we don’t need to hide the identifier. If we don’t want them to be uniquely identifiable, then hiding the identifiable ID becomes a violation of the voters privacy.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  I thought the US has something called voting registration and it's public. How does that ensure anonymity?
  - cr1895 5y ago
    Voter registration is not linked to how one votes.
  - hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
    You can register as a Democrat and participate in the primaries for the Democratic candidate but (thanks to the secret ballot) vote for Republicans in the final election. Or vice-versa. And nobody other than you will ever know how you (as an individual) actually voted. Or you can register as an independent if you prefer. The rules vary by state, but the worst that happens is you can't participate in the primaries (but can absolutely vote in the final election). Who you, as an individual, voted for is still not traceable back to you. In other words, it's your right, thanks to the secret ballot, to vote completely differently from the party you registered under or even differently from how everyone in your life perceives you, and nobody will ever know. There are people who changed their mind years ago about what party they support and have been voting that way ever since, but just haven't gotten around to (or don't care enough to) update the party they listed on their voter registration.
    - ThinkingGuy 5y ago
      Some states, such as Georgia, don't have party registration at all. You're not a "registered Republican/Democract," just "registered." Any registered voter can choose to vote in either the Republican or Democratic primary (unsurprisingly, this "open primary" system was originally implemented in order to supress the Black vote).
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    It does not reveal who you vote for. A traceable ballot that has been cast can reveal this info.
  - barsonme 5y ago
    That doesn’t mean your physical ballot can be traced back to you, however. Your vote is secret, the fact that you’ve registered isn’t.
- willis936 5y ago
  This begs the question of how the secret dots aren't a blanket violation of the 4th amendment. Also IANAL but I feel like there must be some law about deception of this kind. Selling a product that does something you don't expect it to, were never told about, and would not reasonably even observe feels somehow like fraud.
IanCal 5y ago
Most countries have a secret ballot. In the UK all ballots are linked to the voter with an intermediate table effectively, which is then destroyed after a certain time. More generally, for ballots you don't need to hide this, you could just have a number on them.
jahmed 5y ago
What exactly does "audit" mean to you? Ballots typically do have unique IDs usually on some part that is removed by the voter. The problem is that isn't linked to anything because we don't want it linked to anything. This form of auditing isn't compatible with ballot secrecy. US elections do undergo rigorous process audits but the electorial process presents challenges to results audits.
- dukeofdoom 5y ago
  With mailed out ballots, if each paper ballot had a unique id. You could audit: 1. That each paper ballot was only counted once by the tabulating machine. 2. No extra ballots were returned with an id that was not generated. 3. Easily spot copied ballots. You could probably audit more things. If for example the id corresponded to a county, and so on.
  - hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
    Yes, it would be very convenient and maybe make it easier to catch voter fraud. But the voters couldn't have any trust that their vote was being counted separately from their actual identity. If the government mails me a ballot with ID #1234 on it at my home address, then they have a way of knowing that Ballot #1234 belongs to me in particular when they're tabulating the votes, which means they can find out exactly how I voted. Now we don't have a secret ballot anymore, and the secret ballot is a fundamental part of our democratic voting system; a secret ballot prevents the government from rewarding people or doling out punishment based on how they voted. It's a safeguard against authoritarianism. (I think some US states put identifying info on the outer envelope or sleeve that the ballot is returned in, but there's a strict system to keep the envelope-opening step separate from the ballot-tabulation step, so people's votes cannot be personally linked to them as long as the system is followed. And these days there are usually cameras watching to make sure it is followed, and the footage is public.) If you do get rid of the secret ballot then there's not much of a reason to hide the ballot ID via yellow dots. Just put "Ballot #1234" all over it and/or print a unique barcode. But regardless of whether the ballot ID is displayed or hidden, if you happen to get a dictatorial maniac into power (whatever you personally envision that person to look like) then you would be one step closer to letting that leader use personally-identifiable voting records to punish the people who voted the way he (probably a he) didn't like and/or give the people who voted the way he did like rewards or unfair advantages.
suction 5y ago
There are very persistent rumours that exactly this is done in Japan at every election. I can't find a Non-Japanese source right now.
- yreg 5y ago
  How would they do it? Have a unique id for each envelope and enter citizen ID and ballot ID in a database as they hand you the envelope? The process should be well known since all it takes to find out is go sit in an election committee.
  - suction 5y ago
    That assumes that the Japanese version of democracy works similar to the ones we live in. Which it doesn't, at all. It's more of an authoritarian system with a friendly, democratic facade put in front when the US pressured Japan to modernize after WW2. A very interesting topic, I've recommended this book on HN before: Karel Van Wolferen - "The Enigma of Japanese power". Basically what we think of the system of modern Japan in the West are carefully doctored fairy-tales and mythology.
    - yreg 5y ago
      Can you be more specific what exactly my question assumes which is not true?
      - suction 5y ago
        That 1. they have similar election committees and 2. anyone can go take part in them
        yreg 5y ago
        How are they dissimilar to the western ones? Who participates in them? Can't the parties candidating in the election nominate their representatives into the committees?
danghacker 5y ago
A third world country whose offshoring programmers are regularly mocked by the ivory tower SV elites can do voter id but not the world's richest country
anthony_romeo 5y ago
Would that open up conspiracies about the end of the 'secret ballot'?

sircastor 5y ago

Ballots are tricky. In the US, You want to ensure anonymity while also ensuring the voters franchise is not threatened. If we want them to be uniquely identifiable, then we don’t need to hide the identifier. If we don’t want them to be uniquely identifiable, then hiding the identifiable ID becomes a violation of the voters privacy.

beebeepka 5y ago
I thought the US has something called voting registration and it's public. How does that ensure anonymity?
- cr1895 5y ago
  Voter registration is not linked to how one votes.
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  You can register as a Democrat and participate in the primaries for the Democratic candidate but (thanks to the secret ballot) vote for Republicans in the final election. Or vice-versa. And nobody other than you will ever know how you (as an individual) actually voted. Or you can register as an independent if you prefer. The rules vary by state, but the worst that happens is you can't participate in the primaries (but can absolutely vote in the final election). Who you, as an individual, voted for is still not traceable back to you. In other words, it's your right, thanks to the secret ballot, to vote completely differently from the party you registered under or even differently from how everyone in your life perceives you, and nobody will ever know. There are people who changed their mind years ago about what party they support and have been voting that way ever since, but just haven't gotten around to (or don't care enough to) update the party they listed on their voter registration.
  - ThinkingGuy 5y ago
    Some states, such as Georgia, don't have party registration at all. You're not a "registered Republican/Democract," just "registered." Any registered voter can choose to vote in either the Republican or Democratic primary (unsurprisingly, this "open primary" system was originally implemented in order to supress the Black vote).
- nebula8804 5y ago
  It does not reveal who you vote for. A traceable ballot that has been cast can reveal this info.
- barsonme 5y ago
  That doesn’t mean your physical ballot can be traced back to you, however. Your vote is secret, the fact that you’ve registered isn’t.
willis936 5y ago
This begs the question of how the secret dots aren't a blanket violation of the 4th amendment. Also IANAL but I feel like there must be some law about deception of this kind. Selling a product that does something you don't expect it to, were never told about, and would not reasonably even observe feels somehow like fraud.

IanCal 5y ago

Most countries have a secret ballot. In the UK all ballots are linked to the voter with an intermediate table effectively, which is then destroyed after a certain time. More generally, for ballots you don't need to hide this, you could just have a number on them.

jahmed 5y ago

What exactly does "audit" mean to you? Ballots typically do have unique IDs usually on some part that is removed by the voter. The problem is that isn't linked to anything because we don't want it linked to anything. This form of auditing isn't compatible with ballot secrecy. US elections do undergo rigorous process audits but the electorial process presents challenges to results audits.

dukeofdoom 5y ago
With mailed out ballots, if each paper ballot had a unique id. You could audit: 1. That each paper ballot was only counted once by the tabulating machine. 2. No extra ballots were returned with an id that was not generated. 3. Easily spot copied ballots. You could probably audit more things. If for example the id corresponded to a county, and so on.
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  Yes, it would be very convenient and maybe make it easier to catch voter fraud. But the voters couldn't have any trust that their vote was being counted separately from their actual identity. If the government mails me a ballot with ID #1234 on it at my home address, then they have a way of knowing that Ballot #1234 belongs to me in particular when they're tabulating the votes, which means they can find out exactly how I voted. Now we don't have a secret ballot anymore, and the secret ballot is a fundamental part of our democratic voting system; a secret ballot prevents the government from rewarding people or doling out punishment based on how they voted. It's a safeguard against authoritarianism. (I think some US states put identifying info on the outer envelope or sleeve that the ballot is returned in, but there's a strict system to keep the envelope-opening step separate from the ballot-tabulation step, so people's votes cannot be personally linked to them as long as the system is followed. And these days there are usually cameras watching to make sure it is followed, and the footage is public.) If you do get rid of the secret ballot then there's not much of a reason to hide the ballot ID via yellow dots. Just put "Ballot #1234" all over it and/or print a unique barcode. But regardless of whether the ballot ID is displayed or hidden, if you happen to get a dictatorial maniac into power (whatever you personally envision that person to look like) then you would be one step closer to letting that leader use personally-identifiable voting records to punish the people who voted the way he (probably a he) didn't like and/or give the people who voted the way he did like rewards or unfair advantages.

suction 5y ago

There are very persistent rumours that exactly this is done in Japan at every election. I can't find a Non-Japanese source right now.

yreg 5y ago
How would they do it? Have a unique id for each envelope and enter citizen ID and ballot ID in a database as they hand you the envelope? The process should be well known since all it takes to find out is go sit in an election committee.
- suction 5y ago
  That assumes that the Japanese version of democracy works similar to the ones we live in. Which it doesn't, at all. It's more of an authoritarian system with a friendly, democratic facade put in front when the US pressured Japan to modernize after WW2. A very interesting topic, I've recommended this book on HN before: Karel Van Wolferen - "The Enigma of Japanese power". Basically what we think of the system of modern Japan in the West are carefully doctored fairy-tales and mythology.
  - yreg 5y ago
    Can you be more specific what exactly my question assumes which is not true?
    - suction 5y ago
      That 1. they have similar election committees and 2. anyone can go take part in them
      - yreg 5y ago
        How are they dissimilar to the western ones? Who participates in them? Can't the parties candidating in the election nominate their representatives into the committees?

danghacker 5y ago

A third world country whose offshoring programmers are regularly mocked by the ivory tower SV elites can do voter id but not the world's richest country

anthony_romeo 5y ago

Would that open up conspiracies about the end of the 'secret ballot'?