9 ms·
American Medical Association: Remove Sex from Public Birth Certificates
- PostThisTooFast 5y ago"and can be used to discriminate" WTF? So can the lack of a designation. Why all the outrage over this bullshit, when we still tolerate discrimination based on marital status? Why should a personal and/or religious arrangement confer governmental privileges or different tax status? You'd think there's nothing else left for us to tackle in the USA other than pandering to the gender-confused and non-white.
- walterbell 5y agoGood for robot and AI futures, allows repurposing of HR systems, taxation, identity and workflow adaptation for nonhuman actors.
- exporectomy 5y agoI wonder if this would eliminate single sex schools and girls/womens sports.
- FeistyOtter 5y agoOn a related note, was watching Olympics yesterday. It was a shooting day, and I was kind of surprised that men and women competed separately. I understand separation in physically demanding sports like weightlifting, but pistol and rifle shooting have no such requirements. And historically war snipers were a mix of men and women.
- dbt00 5y agoTwice as many events and medals for competitors, assuming you don't buy into the idea that men have their own competitions so they don't have to lose to women (see also: ski jumping).
- cyberpsybin 5y agoThey compete separately in Chess as well.
- approxim8ion 5y agoThis is one of the weirdest for me, because there's literally no barrier that can justify this separation. And GMs like Hou Yifan for example can go toe to toe with anyone now.
- goldenkey 5y agoYou can't just make stuff up. Hou Yifan says herself that chess is very exhausting and men have an advantage in this aspect. "I think there is a physical aspect because chess exhausts a lot of energy, especially when games last 6-7 hours, and here women could be more disadvantaged." Why deny differences in biology to further a false reality? https://www.chess.com/article/view/hou-yifan-interview-chess https://www.chess.com/article/view/hou-yifan-interview-chess
- approxim8ion 5y agoYou mean the same Hou Yifan who said multiple times that she was speculating?
- goldenkey 5y agoI'd trust the world champion of chess to not mention physicality as a possible reason unless it had merit. She's been playing chess her whole life.
- approxim8ion 5y agoI'm not disagreeing with her opinion or negating her experiences, it's not my place. That said, classical (3h+) isn't the only form of chess, and it could be something that is personal to her and not representative of female players as a monolith.
- jmopp 5y agoFun fact: Shooting was only segregated by sex after 1992 - when a woman won gold.
- paulintrognon 5y agoFor those who want to fact check. It was not the whole Shooting category but only Skeet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics_%E2%80%93_Mixed_skeet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_at_the_1992_Summer_Ol... > It was the last Olympic skeet competition open to both men and women, and the only mixed shooting competition at the Olympics ever won by a woman: Zhang Shan.
- rich_sasha 5y agoParticularly interesting, as Skeet is, if anything, more physically challenging.
- rossmohax 5y agoI was thinking about it, like why there are separate competitions in chess or cybersport or like you said shooting. Can't say for sure, but probably it is because tournament is a tip of the iceberg of what contenders are actually competing in. For non physically demanding sports most of the work is in training prior to this competition: being able to find good coach, stick to regime, balance life vs sport, emotional control, managing finances and sponsorships, chances of getting into the sport in the first place etc. These aspects are quite different for men and women, so they naturally have separated tournaments.
- FeistyOtter 5y agoAs far as I know about chess, there are no men-only tournaments in chess. Instead everyone, both men and women, can compete in the "usual" tournaments. But because there are so few female chess players around, to encourage girls and women to play chess women-only competitions were introduced. Some think that such women-only tournaments work as intended by promoting chess among females, some don't. Famously arguably the strongest female chess player in history Judit Polgár never competed in the women's world championship.
- jobigoud 5y agoIMHO it should be the same in sports. This would also make it easier conceptually to prevent trans women from competing with other women iff they have an unfair advantage, as the other category woul not be marked as men only.
- roenxi 5y agoThis looks like it is being done for reasons that are kinda stupid, but it reduces the amount of data collected by the government. So probably a good move for privacy and so forth.
- merlincorey 5y agoIn case you missed it in the article, it explicitly says that they still suggest sending the data to the government: > A person's sex designation at birth would still be submitted to the U.S. Standard Certificate of Live Birth for medical, public health, and statistical use only, report authors note.
- roenxi 5y agoI did miss that, although I see they hid it deep in the third paragraph. What a bafflingly stupid plan then. If they expect this to be fluid over someone's life, the government doesn't need to collect stats at birth.
- goldenkey 5y agoWell they are doing it as signaling, not necessarily for good.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- helge9210 5y agoPut XX, XY or whatever karyotype shows.
- bell-cot 5y agoIssue 1 - A karyotype that is as accurate as the age-old glance at the newborn's genitals would require lab work. Mandating such a change at scale would see push-back from almost all of the parties involved, from new mothers to insurance providers. Issue 2 - You are suggesting an objective and emotionally (fairly) neutral fix for a hot-button culture war issue. While admirable, this is much like hoping that pacifists will win a shooting war.
- jobigoud 5y agoFor what purpose? It's not a medical document anyway.
- perlancar3 5y agoMy guess is same argument as adding blood type to ID: it could help you in situations like emergency or accident (checking blood type is a few seconds anyway, but there might be situation where a test kit is not available when needed).
- taxicabjesus 5y agoSomething's not quite right with transgender Wokesterism. HN only allows you to lose 5 points from down-votes, so here-goes. (if you think something is wrong with biological males who "transition" in their 30's to become females so they can compete against biological females in the olympics [0], could you spare an upvote? Thanks.) Had a passenger with a 1 year old son, who I decided needed her $8.20 more than I did, so I said "this one's on me." As I drove away I got a text: "Thanks, I appreciated that." I'd told her to look into food stamps, and took her and her girlfriend on their first shopping trip. We became friends on the facebook. Months later she got rid of her girlfriend, who had issues too. After maybe a year I noticed FB posts about her decision to transition. I thought her gender problems had more to do with having had adverse childhood experiences while in the foster care system, but I didn't say anything. Some months later I stopped to visit, I don't remember why. She said, "... I'm pregnant." "... But I thought you were becoming a man?" "Well, you know, ..." She'd already been scheduled for a c-section delivery & removal of her uterus/ovaries... She was hopeful the doctors would be able to save her second child, whose prognosis was not good. Alas the child did not live too long, and my passenger continued 'transitioning'. I seem him on facebook now, seems to be doing okay. Years later, I heard another story. I have another friend who was playing on a womens softball team... The ladies on her team looked at one of the other team's players, and said amongst themselves, THAT'S NO WOMAN. My friend didn't like gossiping, so she went to talk. Turned out the other team's player was a chimera: an almost-completely-fused conjoined twin, and while she did have the undercarriage (lower body) of a man, she had the upper body strength of a woman. Nowadays I guess parents wouldn't get to choose which gender to make their chimera-child at birth, they'd wait for the child to decide for itself if it wanted surgery to choose one gender or the other. I heard the story second-hand; it was tragic and cool. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics) / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjoined_twins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjoined_twins I seriously doubt my passenger was an undiscovered inter-sex conjoined twin. I have no doubt that inter-sex people exist, as this phenomenon is well-supported in my perusal of the Wikipedia. But why not just add a checkbox to the birth certificate: inter-sex observed at birth, and be able to add this to a birth certificate if the evidence becomes available later "we didn't notice this person was a conjoined twin at first, but it was discovered by [evidence] on [date]." We could even have another olympics for conjoined people. Finally, Congressman Dan Crenshaw had a great podcast with @ScottNewgent, who did very poorly "transitioning": https://twitter.com/gummibear737/status/1367956605283823621 https://twitter.com/gummibear737/status/1367956605283823621 @ScottNewgent responded to that tweet: > It’s the 100% truth. Everything I stated was verified with facts. I almost died from trans health. I will NOT STOP UNTIL kids are safe. The trans debate has NOTHING to do with human rights. It’s about money & they r using our awkward, autistic gay kids to create a enterprise. (emphasis added) [0] https://fairplayforwomen.com/laurel_hubbard/ https://fairplayforwomen.com/laurel_hubbard/
- Renaud 5y agoThis is going a step further than what I always thought as being unnecessary: having your sex on ID and passport. I don't see any real reason why this is still required, or why it matter that the sex of a person be present on an ID document. The purpose of the ID is to identify the bearer. Most ID are now biometric, meaning the identification relies on unchanged physical features, like geometric relationships of the face. A simple photo should be enough to confirm the ID of the bearer.
- danieltillett 5y agoHow about which jail cell you are placed in if arrested?
- goldenkey 5y agoAll straight men would opt to be placed in the women's jail for safety and sex.
- vixen99 5y agoEvidently of interest if you're someone like Jasmine Rose Jones. https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarceration/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/23/us/trans-women-incarcerat...
- Renaud 5y agoThat's a pretty narrow view of the purpose of an ID card... If only there were other ways of knowing how to differentiate people when it's really necessary, you know, for medical or justified legal reasons.
- IG_Semmelweiss 5y agoBig win. The less data collected on IDs the better. Take for example the state of lebanon today. You can draw a straight line from data on IDs, to the collapse of government of 2021. The lebanese govt was collecting religion data in their IDs back in the 20th century. On the run up to the 1970s civil war and during the war , people were stopped, harrassed and later murdered based on their stated religion. After the civil war concluded this was taken off official documentation but the damage was already done: sectarianism had taken root in society and laws passed designating that the PM must be from X sect, the president from Y sect, etc. This took cronysm and sale of offices to new heights, culminating with the bloodsucking of the state via revolving door between the major sects that had granted themselves permanent state powers. Now the country is bankrupt, with massive brain drain, and sectarian strife. The less groups the govt can create, the healthier we are as a a society
- dead-snake 5y agoA powerful, influential cult is rising to prominence in the west, and our institutions are being corrupted by its bizarre tenets. Simple as that.
- ganghacker 5y agoSadly, more people are opposed to this than can openly speak up
- lmnop1234 5y agoTwo or three years ago it was just another snake cult, now... they're everywhere.
- fjfaase 5y agoMaybe they should first ban corrective surgery on intersex individuals or at least accept the intersex condition as normal, not an illness that needs to be cured, at least not until the person involved has come to an age of reason where they can decide themselves. Note that some forms of intersexuality only appear during puperty.
- intellix 5y agoJust let people provide a key => value map and let them write whatever they want to make themselves feel comfortable: man, woman, him, her, they, black, white, #555555, gay, straight, it's complicated.... Etc
- dnzkw 5y agoThis is a birth certificate not a Grindr profile.
- josh_today 5y agoHow about we remove race and ethnicity from all forms while we’re at it
- refurb 5y agoNeed to remove names and photos too since you can infer race, sex and ethnicity too.
- Uberphallus 5y ago> Sex should be removed as a legal designation on the public part of birth certificates, the American Medical Association (AMA) said Monday. Yet shortly after. > only 10 states allow for a gender-neutral designation, usually "X," on birth certificates So now sex and gender are the same? > "Assigning sex using binary variables in the public portion of the birth certificate fails to recognize the medical spectrum of gender identity," Underwood said, and can be used to discriminate. It looks like. I'm skeptical about gender theory (or rather, wary of the identity politics that seem to come along with it), so bear with me if I misunderstand something. Assigning sex assigns sex, not gender. It's a birth certificate, not a "birth fact sheet that needs to be amended in the future with things that can't be known at birth" certificate. I see sometimes (this article included) the argument that when birth certificates are required, it will force trans/queers to "out" themselves in situations where it's not safe for them, but that's disingenuous because, at least in the countries I'm familiar with, you can't change your name in your birth certificate to begin with, and when you can there's the original + amendment. So you're still gonna have John in it even if you're Jane, which raises more questions than an M/F field. You generally obtain a name/sex recognition certificate and with those you can go and obtain updated duplicates of your driving license, ID, passport, diplomas (outing yourself every single time in the process). Personally I see no particular reason to require birth certificates for any purpose when any other government produced document is available, except, maybe, when acquiring citizenships. Maybe that's the way to go, rather than removing sex (or gender) from the birth certificate itself.
- King-Aaron 5y agoGender, sure. But surely from a medical perspective it's important to know what kind of hardware a person has. I mean if you start having problems with your prostate it might be helpful to give the doctor a heads up.
- ekimekim 5y agoThis is also an argument for including your blood type, ethnicity (risk of certain genetic issues), and known allergies on your birth certificate. Is this meant to be a medical document, or a legal one? If medical, then it shouldn't be allowed to be required for identification for privacy reasons. If legal, then why does it contain medical information at all?
- threatofrain 5y agoThat's a matter between you and your doctor. A birth certificate could be narrowly focused on declaring that a person was born.
- mjfl 5y agoHow about the American Medical Association make things better by increasing the number of doctors that can be licensed instead of this vacuous bullshit? They are one of the primary reasons that healthcare expenses are as high as they are and they want a fucking pat on the back for this?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- FeistyOtter 5y agoI am not from USA and the idea that a country limits the amount of doctors it produces sounds ridiculous to me.
- thecal 5y agoIt is more complicated than that. Check out this answer: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/4703 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/a/4703
- jollybean 5y agoI think this is a fairly radical idea, beyond the role of the AMA etc. and only serves to drive massive political wedges in the population. I suggest the vast, vast majority of the population is fine with the system the way it is, and that there isn't really evidence removing gender will help. This gives further credence that many of our institutions have been radicalized. If someone from the AMA were to have 'made a point' or hinted at a study, that would be find, but making such recommendations is beyond pale.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]