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Ssheven: A modern SSH client for Mac OS 7-9
- Lammy 5y agoThis is fantastic! I love the CLARIS-inspired "box" art too https://i.imgur.com/P9G7jOx.jpg https://i.imgur.com/P9G7jOx.jpg
- tambourine_man 5y agoCame here for this exact comment. The artwork is spot on. That, by itself alone, would have been amazing. I don't miss the lack of memory protection of classic Mac OS, but I do miss everything else.
- grishka 5y agoDidn't last Mac OS 9 versions have memory protection? I mean there's a reason it's hard to run 9.2 on an emulator — it requires a working MMU.
- tambourine_man 5y agoNo, after 8.6 the system featured a micro kernel on which the old OS ran atop. I think you could opt in for better stability, but I'm not sure. But most of the OS and apps still ran on the same shared memory space with cooperative multitasking, meaning a single app could (and did) bring the whole system down. I think you can emulate 9.2 just fine, but it's been a while since I played with this things.
- fay59 5y agoMac OS 9 has virtual memory (it uses virtual address translation and it can swap pages to disk), but it still has a single address space that is shared between every application.
- grishka 5y agoAh. I remember reading "it has virtual memory" and assumed that this includes each process running in its own address space. Was it common for applications to reach directly into kernel memory instead of using proper APIs?
- Someone 5y agoIt has preemptive multitasking for compute-only tasks (the MultiProcessing library. See http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1176.html#mpapi http://mirror.informatimago.com/next/developer.apple.com/tec...) I also think the OS, technically, was preemptive multitasking, but ran all ‘normal’ code in a single preemptive task (https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.programmer.help/c/fqdq59fxQ1g/m/uSy4DSDLeJcJ https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.programmer.help/c/f...) I also vaguely remember the kernel had some memory protection enabled. Of course, almost none of that mattered for typical user-space programs.
- classichasclass 5y agoThis is an issue for SheepShaver (limited to 9.0.4 because 9.1 and up require the MMU as you say), but not QEMU, which emulates the MMU and thus runs 9.2 just fine.
- azalemeth 5y agoI genuinely think it fits right in. Apple always had a good aesthetic, even when everything was beige and rectangular. I did a giant chunk of my school work on Claris Works, before I discovered latex. Happy memories.
- Lammy 5y agoIf only I could still get laptops with the keys printed in Univers 57 Condensed Oblique :) https://catalog.monotype.com/font/linotype/univers/57-condensed-oblique https://catalog.monotype.com/font/linotype/univers/57-conden...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- fzzzy 5y agowell you can on ebay ;)
- dTal 5y agoThat aesthetic was widespread throughout the PC universe in the 90s as well. I remember having a giant clip-art library that came on a whole bunch of CDs, and actually came with a catalog book to leaf through. A lot of it looked like that. Another example is Microsoft's clipart library, (in)famous for its images of the "screen bean" guy.
- cy384 5y agothanks, I had fun making it! there's full design for a box and a floppy label that I've made for the upcoming 1.0 release
- BugsJustFindMe 5y agoThis is a real work of art. I have no words.
- voidfunc 5y agoLove quirky projects like this
- rcarmo 5y agoThis is amazing. I am going to try running this on a Raspberry Pi emulating System 7, and relive the hours I spent logging in to remote machines back in the dial-up days.
- vaxman 5y agoYou’re holding it wrong..this is for connecting a classic Mac to a Raspberry Pi.
- kzrdude 5y agoI think you misread, maybe
- vaxman 5y agoNope. You want to run a Classic MacOS emulator on rPi to test SSH for MacOS, but that makes no sense.
- rcarmo 5y agoIt does when you don't have a Classic Mac anymore and love the platform. A Pi 3 does an excellent rendition.
- vaxman 5y agoJust to test out an SSH client? (Tip: rPi has plenty of SSH clients) And what’s with the downvotes? You’re talking about exploring Classic MacOS on an rPi not the subject of the OP.
- sharikous 5y agoThis is really wonderful. I can transform my old 68k machine to a dumb terminal and do real work!
- tambourine_man 5y ago>input latency feels high because redrawing the screen is slow (along with all the encryption, which is also slow) Is modern encryption a challenge to those old machines? Is it because of specialized encryption hardware or sheer brute force? Or is it just this implementation that's slow? I used telnet back in the 68k days.
- Gibbon1 5y ago> Is modern encryption a challenge to those old machines? I've used modern encryption/mac routines on small embedded micro's and they seem reasonably efficient. Couple of operations per byte. They have to be fast because they are used for decrypting stuff like streaming video. I think an exception is password hashing algorithms which are slow by design. That said some of the older algorithms are really inefficient. Hundreds of ops per byte.
- techrat 5y ago> Is modern encryption a challenge to those old machines? Ooooooh yeah. It's got some serious overhead on single core systems several-hundred-megahertz systems without the instructions that are used to accelerate encryption these days. AES is what modern CPUs use to help with that. It wasn't until Power7+ before encryption was accelerated on that class of CPUs. The latest Mac to use Power CPUs was discontinued 6 years before that.
- blibble 5y agonot sure that's right... for interactive use, compared to rendering to the display and pushing the packet out the crypto overhead is going to be minuscule
- retrac 5y agoOnce you have authenticated each other and agree to a nice symmetric cipher and exchange the keys for that, yes. Bytes, even kilobytes per second. But note the "once you have authenticated". Public key crypto is brutal number crunching and takes minutes to hours on systems of the 80s, and some noticeable seconds even in the late 90s. I think that's why something like RSA-4096 was not just universally adopted 30 years ago. It was too expensive to compute for casual use.
- bibinou 5y agothe machine it's probably tested on: http://www.cy384.com/projects/centris-650.html http://www.cy384.com/projects/centris-650.html
- slavapestov 5y agoAnd it’s sitting on top of a VAX. Perfect pairing
- Aeolun 5y agoWhenever I see these I’m baffed we could ever run a full GUI on these things, when the machines of today often have issues running one.
- userbinator 5y agoThe faster the hardware gets, the more software becomes inefficient. Unfortunately, hardware hasn't become much faster outside of niche cases (massively parallel vector computations etc.) for the past decade or so.
- snotrockets 5y agoEfficiency isn't limited to execution speed. Memory protection is efficiency, even if it has cost in execution speed. Better abstractions make it possible to write more complex programs, at the cost of some execution speed. I've programmed on very slow hardware in the past, and the only thing I miss from those days is my hairline.
- cy384 5y agothe GUI code for the earliest macs was absolutely a great feat of engineering by getting my hands dirty with the system, I'm impressed by the way things were designed for the wimpiest processors (and also getting a lot of insight into the flaws of the OS that were exposed as machines became more powerful)
- fzzzy 5y ago
- supernintendo 5y agoOh wow, thank you for this. :) I was just restoring an iMac G3, the Flower Power edition, and ran into more trouble than I expected trying to transfer data via a USB flash drive. Filesystems that Mac OS 9 should support were either not mounting properly or causing errors during file transfer when formatted on a modern Apple or Linux system (exFAT was the only one I could get to work for some reason). I’ve been casually looking around for some sort of NAS solution that would be compatible with older versions of Mac OS, but with native scp I can just download files from a Linux box (perhaps a dedicated Raspberry Pi) and skip right to the fun part: exploring all of the weird, cool and charming software and games from this era. So cool!
- Lammy 5y ago> some sort of NAS solution that would be compatible with older versions of Mac OS http://netatalk.sourceforge.net/ http://netatalk.sourceforge.net/ :)
- im_down_w_otp 5y agoYou have to run the 2.x series to interoperate with older "classic" Macs. Nearly everything these days packages the 3.x series and thus only works with more recent OS X clients.
- Lammy 5y agoThat is true for AFP over AppleTalk, yes. Netatalk3 only supports AFP over TCP, but that's fine as far back as System 7 using AppleShare Workstation with MacTCP. System 7.6 and later can use AppleShare Client 3.8.8 with OpenTransport: https://web.archive.org/web/20110418060150/https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1272 https://web.archive.org/web/20110418060150/https://support.a...
- im_down_w_otp 5y agoIt's not the protocols that are entirely the problem. It's the authentication mechanisms that also create limitations. I had zero luck getting my 6.0.8 thru 8.6 installs to connect to Netatalk hosts on either my FreeNAS box or my Ubuntu 20.10 workstation until I manually built and installed the old 2.x tree.
- cmiller1 5y agoThis is perfect! Just replaced the battery in my SE/30 and will have to try this as soon as I find an ethernet solution. There are PDS ethernet cards but they're rare and expensive, or SCSI-ethernet adaptors but they're slow.
- King-Aaron 5y agoI still flick between After Dark (or at least, an After Dark clone) and the old windows 95 maze screensaver on my work machine. I get a lot of positive comments from people in the office that spot it and talk about how they miss those old screensavers.
- tomc1985 5y agoWhat's the After Dark clone? Inquiring minds want to know!
- King-Aaron 5y agoI think it was this site I got it from, though it was a long time ago: https://www.screensaversplanet.com/screensavers/after-dark-flying-toasters-1153/ https://www.screensaversplanet.com/screensavers/after-dark-f... Seems to work fine on Windows 10, just not across multiple screens
- userbinator 5y agoi believe that before OSX, the OS itself had no terminal/shell/command prompt, and I suspect Macs were very rarely used for development back then; it was only with Unix-based OSX that it became hugely popular.
- Lammy 5y agoApple's dev tools did come with one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Works... "The MPW Shell command language was based on the Unix csh language, but was extended to support the main features of the Macintosh GUI. It had simple commands to create menus, dialogs (prompts), and new shell windows. The cursor could be controlled, and MPW scripts or tools could easily be attached to a menu item. Command key shortcuts could be specified. Window size and location could be controlled. These features were popular in commercial production environments, where complicated build and packaging processes were all controlled by elaborate scripts."
- fzzzy 5y agoThe mpw shell is much closer to a smalltalk Workspace, but yes, it was technically the command line for classic mac.
- StevePerkins 5y agoWho WAS Apple's customer base during the classic MacOS era? I remember Apple II's dominating when I was in school back in the 1980's. Then in the 1990's when I was in college, all I remember seeing anywhere were PC's. DOS and then Windows for the masses, and this new thing called Slackware Linux for many of us in the CS department. In the 2000's I started hearing about Macs, but only for creative domains like Photoshop or video editing. Then the Intel CPU switch happened, and today I'm on a MacBook just like pretty much every other programmer I know. What was Apple's "niche", and who was their "base", back in the 1990's?
- Lammy 5y agoDesktop publishing, especially after the release of the LaserWriter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserWriter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaserWriter It used to be really hard to get printer output to look the same on the page as what you saw on the screen, and the small details matter when people are laying out a complicated magazine (or whatever) page and need text to flow around images and other design elements. There was a whole Adobe-vs-everyone battle over things like outline (as opposed to bitmap) font technology since they controlled the standard for PostScript fonts as used by printers like LaserWriter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript_fonts#Type_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript_fonts#Type_1 Then Apple created TrueType, and it is the biggest feature of System 7 that I never see anyone talk about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueType https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueType Then still lots of back and forth over things like Adobe's multi-master fonts vs TrueType GX which despite being part of the "failed" QuickDraw GX actually lives on in OpenType today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_master_fonts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_master_fonts https://atadistance.net/2016/09/20/truetype-gx-model-lives-on-in-opentype-variation-fonts/ https://atadistance.net/2016/09/20/truetype-gx-model-lives-o... https://tidbits.com/1994/09/26/preliminary-practical-primer-to-quickdraw-gx-part-iii/ https://tidbits.com/1994/09/26/preliminary-practical-primer-... --- e: "magazine page" is what always comes to mind because it makes me think of the Diehard GameFAN story: http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/gamefan/GameFAN.htm http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/gamefan/GameFAN.htm "he calls the layout artist (which was probably Jacob Riskin or George Weising at the time), 'my trusty [Macintosh] Quadra operator'. What an assface."
- cy384 5y agooh hey everyone, author here, ssheven is still beta quality, so I wasn't really posting about it anywhere yet, but it's usable and has the core functionality working ok I plan to do a writeup about it, and the experience of developing for old macs, once I finish the 1.0 release edit: btw, this is my first project for the classic Mac OS, I hope to inspire others to also jump in, retro68 is a very usable toolchain (big thanks to Wolfgang Thaller/autc04)
- callinyouin 5y agoThis is so cool. I've been wanting to pick up an older mac for the sole purpose of doing some programming on classic MacOS myself. I actually have a Macintosh SE, but it's a bit too underpowered for my tastes. Anyway, I was hoping you might be willing to share what your development environment looks like. Language, editor, etc. Thanks! Edit: I think I started to reply before your edit. Retro68 sounds amazing!
- cy384 5y agoif you want to go period-appropriate, you can run Macintosh Programmer's Workshop or CodeWarrior natively I use retro68 on linux, which is a modern GCC toolchain, so it's just like developing any other C/C++ (well, without some nice debugging tools, and with the added complexity of the mac OS resource stuff) https://github.com/autc04/Retro68/ https://github.com/autc04/Retro68/
- Aloha 5y agoSorry for posting it before you were ready! I just thought it was really cool, and I thought getting you some more eyeshare might be useful in helping you find more folks wanting to work on it.
- cy384 5y agoit's no problem, the killer feature (that it works at all, and can connect to modern servers with default configs) is solid, and more people using it will help flush out bugs
- 5y ago
- pjmlp 5y agoPity it uses Retro68 instead of MPW and PowerPlant. Other than that, great work.
- terrorOf 5y agonot pity. You cannot compile modern code with MPW and PowerPlant.