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I agree with your take that infrastructure is not enough, but I think it's still necessary, at least until there's a clear change in culture. Over here in Pari

I agree with your take that infrastructure is not enough, but I think it's still necessary, at least until there's a clear change in culture. Over here in Paris, there still are many bike-related fatalities, and most cars are smaller than in the US, biking has been more popular (and feasible) for longer, etc. Yet people still don't pay attention. And by "people" I mean car drivers [0], bike riders [1] and pedestrians. [2] Regarding pedestrian / cycle shared streets, it may overall be better that sharing with cars, but there have been quite a few cases involving scooters (as in Lime and the sort) and pedestrians, some of them fatal, on this kind of shared roads. Not sure what the best approach would be to help change mentalities. --- [0] As a motorcyclist I try to make sure people have seen me / are going to stop and check / etc and the number of people I see completely absorbed by their phone seems to be climbing every day. Also, a new fashion in Paris for the last few years is running red lights. [1] A few years ago I started seeing signs on trucks and buses along the lines of "blind spot / if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you / don't overtake on the right", usually with some cyclist behind. I've always been surprised by this, I thought people had figured that out. My motorcycle instructor taught us to be sure to be able to see a truck's mirrors when behind. My reaction was "duh", to which he responded "you'd be surprised". [2] Many people walk into traffic without paying attention. The City has recently started deploying blinking lights on the border of sidewalks synchronized with traffic lights.

orwin 5y ago
for your [1], yeah, people don't really know how to bike in France, and that's becoming an issue in cities that started being bike-friendly. It took 20 year to La Rochelle to have a really good bike infra and to get people to not be reckless.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  Was it just infrastructure, or did they also invest somehow in education? Maybe Paris could learn from La Rochelle and avoid what didn't work out. My point is that people should really have this ingrained, and not put down the phone / not do stupid things just because there's a cop looking. Because as soon as the cop turns away / is on break, the bad behavior happens again. Also, being on the lookout for cops so that you can scroll your FB feed without getting fined only detracts from paying attention to the road.
- cycomanic 5y ago
  I'm in France visiting the in-laws right now and was actually surprised how bad the cycling infrastructure is compared to what I remembered. In particular around Paris. Also hardly anyone on the roads in the outer suburbs. If that is like that in most of France, no wonder that they haven't had a tour de France winner in 40 years (which really bothers the French) . If kids don't start riding early and use bikes as a mode of transport they will not get into it as a sport either. Let's also not forget how incredibly empowering bikes are for kids, essentially they can get anywhere they want to if they can ride around on a bike. About French drivers, I have the feeling that French drivers are very inconsiderate to every one not just bikes at least for urban traffic.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    > Let's also not forget how incredibly empowering bikes are for kids, essentially they can get anywhere they want to if they can ride around on a bike. That's true on paper, but note that in the outer suburbs, towns are usually small and kids would have to ride quite long distances (>10 km) to get anywhere useful. And winters here can be rough. Add to that narrow streets and careless drivers, and I can totally understand why you don't see many kids cycling.
    - cycomanic 5y ago
      Are you talking about the Paris suburbs? Sure towns are quite small but in a 10km radius there are still more people than in many other places in Europe and e.g. the city where I grew up and we all always road around on bikes. 10km was not a large distance for us after turning 10-12. Regarding rough winters, I grew up in Germany and live in Sweden now, so saying winter in France is rough is quite funny (my French partner is laughing quite hard now)
      - vladvasiliu 5y ago
        Right, I was talking about the parents' point of view. There are always rougher winters until you get to the north pole I guess, but that doesn't change the local people's perception. Also, do they leave the snow on the road, like in France, or do they clear it up? I've also heard Canadians (from Quebec) complain about the rough winters in Paris, so there's that. I don't know where you grew up in Germany nor am I familiar with the country, but the places I've visited (in Baden-Württemberg, around Schwäbisch Hall mostly) had amazing bike infrastructure, with paved paths in very good shape and several meters away from car roads, separated by grass, dirt, etc. I can see why parents would have absolutely no problem letting the kids bike around these paths. Also, drivers seemed much less crazy than around Paris.

orwin 5y ago

for your [1], yeah, people don't really know how to bike in France, and that's becoming an issue in cities that started being bike-friendly. It took 20 year to La Rochelle to have a really good bike infra and to get people to not be reckless.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
Was it just infrastructure, or did they also invest somehow in education? Maybe Paris could learn from La Rochelle and avoid what didn't work out. My point is that people should really have this ingrained, and not put down the phone / not do stupid things just because there's a cop looking. Because as soon as the cop turns away / is on break, the bad behavior happens again. Also, being on the lookout for cops so that you can scroll your FB feed without getting fined only detracts from paying attention to the road.
cycomanic 5y ago
I'm in France visiting the in-laws right now and was actually surprised how bad the cycling infrastructure is compared to what I remembered. In particular around Paris. Also hardly anyone on the roads in the outer suburbs. If that is like that in most of France, no wonder that they haven't had a tour de France winner in 40 years (which really bothers the French) . If kids don't start riding early and use bikes as a mode of transport they will not get into it as a sport either. Let's also not forget how incredibly empowering bikes are for kids, essentially they can get anywhere they want to if they can ride around on a bike. About French drivers, I have the feeling that French drivers are very inconsiderate to every one not just bikes at least for urban traffic.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > Let's also not forget how incredibly empowering bikes are for kids, essentially they can get anywhere they want to if they can ride around on a bike. That's true on paper, but note that in the outer suburbs, towns are usually small and kids would have to ride quite long distances (>10 km) to get anywhere useful. And winters here can be rough. Add to that narrow streets and careless drivers, and I can totally understand why you don't see many kids cycling.
  - cycomanic 5y ago
    Are you talking about the Paris suburbs? Sure towns are quite small but in a 10km radius there are still more people than in many other places in Europe and e.g. the city where I grew up and we all always road around on bikes. 10km was not a large distance for us after turning 10-12. Regarding rough winters, I grew up in Germany and live in Sweden now, so saying winter in France is rough is quite funny (my French partner is laughing quite hard now)
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      Right, I was talking about the parents' point of view. There are always rougher winters until you get to the north pole I guess, but that doesn't change the local people's perception. Also, do they leave the snow on the road, like in France, or do they clear it up? I've also heard Canadians (from Quebec) complain about the rough winters in Paris, so there's that. I don't know where you grew up in Germany nor am I familiar with the country, but the places I've visited (in Baden-Württemberg, around Schwäbisch Hall mostly) had amazing bike infrastructure, with paved paths in very good shape and several meters away from car roads, separated by grass, dirt, etc. I can see why parents would have absolutely no problem letting the kids bike around these paths. Also, drivers seemed much less crazy than around Paris.