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Infrastructure can only help so much, you have to be in a bike friendly community for it to work really well from home to your destination. Of course on the spa

by ehnto 5y ago

Infrastructure can only help so much, you have to be in a bike friendly community for it to work really well from home to your destination. Of course on the sparodic separated bike lanes it goes well, but then you get to the last few miles and you're dropped into the traffic at the mercy of people who haven't seen a bicycle until now, and you are definitely in their space not the other way around. Because people take time to change, I think the two bandaids for the social problem are expanding separated bike lanes and then dropping people into pedestrian/cycle shared streets, not the roads. I know I know, you didn't buy the Ultegra gear set just to sit on the big ring dodging foot traffic, but a cycling city will need to cater to the majority of commuters not the speed machines. Most potential cycle commuters are just everyday people wanting to meander into work and around the city centers.

xmprt 5y ago
Until it becomes faster, cheaper, or more convenient to cycle than drive for most cases, people will continue driving.
- ehnto 5y ago
  Well it is definitely cheaper, but I would hazard a guess it's not always faster from the burbs. For me it is because I am a 30 minute ride and in car traffic it is 45m-1h. So it checks all the boxes you mentioned. But people still drive here. I think convenience is subjective too, since I find it convenient to not deal with car parking in the CBD and I don't find the cycling inconvenient, but others would consider the cycling inconvenient enough that an extra 15 minutes in the car doesn't worry them.
  - baliex 5y ago
    It’s the convenience that’s missing. The difference is not having to worry about the weather (too hot, too cold, wet) and even aside from that, carrying an extra set of clothes even in ideal conditions. And you’re obviously limited as to how much you can carry. Speaking as someone who cycles as a hobby and for transport around the city (commuting and leisure).
- midasuni 5y ago
  In London it’s definitely faster cheaper and more convenient. Still hasn’t reached the critical mass. He’ll in central london it’s faster to walk than get a bus, and buses he special lanes to bypass the traffic! They should get ride of bus lanes and use the lane for bikes and escooters. Put buses in with the delivery vans.
vladvasiliu 5y ago
I agree with your take that infrastructure is not enough, but I think it's still necessary, at least until there's a clear change in culture. Over here in Paris, there still are many bike-related fatalities, and most cars are smaller than in the US, biking has been more popular (and feasible) for longer, etc. Yet people still don't pay attention. And by "people" I mean car drivers [0], bike riders [1] and pedestrians. [2] Regarding pedestrian / cycle shared streets, it may overall be better that sharing with cars, but there have been quite a few cases involving scooters (as in Lime and the sort) and pedestrians, some of them fatal, on this kind of shared roads. Not sure what the best approach would be to help change mentalities. --- [0] As a motorcyclist I try to make sure people have seen me / are going to stop and check / etc and the number of people I see completely absorbed by their phone seems to be climbing every day. Also, a new fashion in Paris for the last few years is running red lights. [1] A few years ago I started seeing signs on trucks and buses along the lines of "blind spot / if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you / don't overtake on the right", usually with some cyclist behind. I've always been surprised by this, I thought people had figured that out. My motorcycle instructor taught us to be sure to be able to see a truck's mirrors when behind. My reaction was "duh", to which he responded "you'd be surprised". [2] Many people walk into traffic without paying attention. The City has recently started deploying blinking lights on the border of sidewalks synchronized with traffic lights.
- orwin 5y ago
  for your [1], yeah, people don't really know how to bike in France, and that's becoming an issue in cities that started being bike-friendly. It took 20 year to La Rochelle to have a really good bike infra and to get people to not be reckless.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    Was it just infrastructure, or did they also invest somehow in education? Maybe Paris could learn from La Rochelle and avoid what didn't work out. My point is that people should really have this ingrained, and not put down the phone / not do stupid things just because there's a cop looking. Because as soon as the cop turns away / is on break, the bad behavior happens again. Also, being on the lookout for cops so that you can scroll your FB feed without getting fined only detracts from paying attention to the road.
cycomanic 5y ago
As a cyclist both for sport and commuting, I have to say shared paths with pedestrians are often more dangerous than riding on roads with moderate traffic. Pedestrians are usually completely unaware of their surroundings and just suddenly walk left/right without looking. And an accident with a pedestrian, while typically not as serious as an accident with a car still can result in serious injuries. The countries that got cycling infrastructure right are the Dutch and Danish. Also Germany and Sweden are improving a lot with their infrastructure. However, we also need to change attitudes and enforcement of rules toward cyclists. The problem is that often police and judges also only drive cars and walk, which leads to cases where cyclists are hit hard for infarctions, but drivers or pedestrians get a slap on the wrist even if their actions result in serious injury.

by ehnto 5y ago

xmprt 5y ago

Until it becomes faster, cheaper, or more convenient to cycle than drive for most cases, people will continue driving.

ehnto 5y ago
Well it is definitely cheaper, but I would hazard a guess it's not always faster from the burbs. For me it is because I am a 30 minute ride and in car traffic it is 45m-1h. So it checks all the boxes you mentioned. But people still drive here. I think convenience is subjective too, since I find it convenient to not deal with car parking in the CBD and I don't find the cycling inconvenient, but others would consider the cycling inconvenient enough that an extra 15 minutes in the car doesn't worry them.
- baliex 5y ago
  It’s the convenience that’s missing. The difference is not having to worry about the weather (too hot, too cold, wet) and even aside from that, carrying an extra set of clothes even in ideal conditions. And you’re obviously limited as to how much you can carry. Speaking as someone who cycles as a hobby and for transport around the city (commuting and leisure).
midasuni 5y ago
In London it’s definitely faster cheaper and more convenient. Still hasn’t reached the critical mass. He’ll in central london it’s faster to walk than get a bus, and buses he special lanes to bypass the traffic! They should get ride of bus lanes and use the lane for bikes and escooters. Put buses in with the delivery vans.

vladvasiliu 5y ago

I agree with your take that infrastructure is not enough, but I think it's still necessary, at least until there's a clear change in culture. Over here in Paris, there still are many bike-related fatalities, and most cars are smaller than in the US, biking has been more popular (and feasible) for longer, etc. Yet people still don't pay attention. And by "people" I mean car drivers [0], bike riders [1] and pedestrians. [2] Regarding pedestrian / cycle shared streets, it may overall be better that sharing with cars, but there have been quite a few cases involving scooters (as in Lime and the sort) and pedestrians, some of them fatal, on this kind of shared roads. Not sure what the best approach would be to help change mentalities. --- [0] As a motorcyclist I try to make sure people have seen me / are going to stop and check / etc and the number of people I see completely absorbed by their phone seems to be climbing every day. Also, a new fashion in Paris for the last few years is running red lights. [1] A few years ago I started seeing signs on trucks and buses along the lines of "blind spot / if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you / don't overtake on the right", usually with some cyclist behind. I've always been surprised by this, I thought people had figured that out. My motorcycle instructor taught us to be sure to be able to see a truck's mirrors when behind. My reaction was "duh", to which he responded "you'd be surprised". [2] Many people walk into traffic without paying attention. The City has recently started deploying blinking lights on the border of sidewalks synchronized with traffic lights.

orwin 5y ago
for your [1], yeah, people don't really know how to bike in France, and that's becoming an issue in cities that started being bike-friendly. It took 20 year to La Rochelle to have a really good bike infra and to get people to not be reckless.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  Was it just infrastructure, or did they also invest somehow in education? Maybe Paris could learn from La Rochelle and avoid what didn't work out. My point is that people should really have this ingrained, and not put down the phone / not do stupid things just because there's a cop looking. Because as soon as the cop turns away / is on break, the bad behavior happens again. Also, being on the lookout for cops so that you can scroll your FB feed without getting fined only detracts from paying attention to the road.

cycomanic 5y ago

As a cyclist both for sport and commuting, I have to say shared paths with pedestrians are often more dangerous than riding on roads with moderate traffic. Pedestrians are usually completely unaware of their surroundings and just suddenly walk left/right without looking. And an accident with a pedestrian, while typically not as serious as an accident with a car still can result in serious injuries. The countries that got cycling infrastructure right are the Dutch and Danish. Also Germany and Sweden are improving a lot with their infrastructure. However, we also need to change attitudes and enforcement of rules toward cyclists. The problem is that often police and judges also only drive cars and walk, which leads to cases where cyclists are hit hard for infarctions, but drivers or pedestrians get a slap on the wrist even if their actions result in serious injury.