7 ms·

Italian Pronunciation: A Primer for Singers (2016)

61 points by AceyMan 5y ago

barcoder 5y ago
It would be nice to hear an Italian teacher read this article
- davidelettieri 5y ago
  I'm Italian but not a teacher. The rules seems mostly reasonable but I think the author is wrong in the Diphthongs section. In the word "pietà" the "i" is not pronounced as in yarn. If you want an "i" as in yarn you need something like "iato". In my personal opinion (not at all an expert on languages) an English speaker should work mostly on "gn" and "gl" since in Italian they form a single sound together while English speaking people split the sounds in two parts like "g-n".
  - qalmakka 5y ago
    I think you're mistaken about the 'y' part; what the author is trying to convey is that [i] in Italian is both the vowel /i/ and the consonant /j/ depending on the context. /j/ is typically rendered in English using [y] (but not always). Pietà is definitely /pje'ta/, not /pie'ta/, like the [i] in ieri /'jeri/ - at least that's how I've always pronounced that. It would have been better if Italian just kept using the letter [j] - it was invented by an Italian guy to solve this kind of ambiguity after all.
    - olau 5y ago
      I don't think the person is mistaken, I think people pronounce it in different ways depending on where they come from. The three examples here does not seem to be pronounced like ieri: https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ Perchance you're speaking a dialect? Happens to all of us. :) Not a native speaker and my Italian is terrible, but I've always loved the Italian i vowels. They are so clear and distinct.
      - riffraff 5y ago
        As a native, I do agree with the original (pietà is not pjetà). So maybe it is a regional pronunciation issue. Or maybe it's like someone who can feel that the proper plural of "figlio" (figli) would have a long "i" (figlî, in some old books) even if it's not really there anymore.
        qalmakka 5y ago
        Italian phonology is clear - approximants like /j/ and /w/ always appear in diphthongs, unless in very rare occurrences; i.e. ài, èi, éi, òi, ói, ùi; àu, èu, éu -> /aj/, /εj/, /ej/, /ɔj/, /oj/, /uj/; /aw/, / εw/, /ew/. For instance, piede is /'pjede/, while tuorlo is /'tworlo/. IPA in Italian dictionaries is very rare, but the only examples I found specify /'pjeta/. Italian pronunciation has never been standardized by anyone, so pronunciation may vary, but unless my knowledge of phonology is completely wrong there's an appoximant in "pietà", like in pieno /'pjeno/ and piano /'pjano/. To avoid i to switch to /j/ there needs to be a "iato", which splits words onto two separate syllables. For instance, mormorio is /mormo'rio/, not /mormo'rjo/. In this case, the word gets split in syllables as mor-mo-RI-o, and the i doesn't become an approximant. Pietà is pie-TÀ, not pi-e-TÀ, because the ie is in a diphthong, so it's /je/.
    - ithkuil 5y ago
      Gian Giorgio Trissino,. 1524 formalized the distinction. Prior to that it was just two variant shapes of the same letter. I saw it still being used on some street signs. Jonio, Jesolo, ...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - 1_player 5y ago
    The closest phonetic approximation to "gn" is the "ny" in canyon, and the approximation to "gl" is the double l in billion.
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    >... an English speaker should work mostly on ... ... and on double consonants (like BTW a number of Italians, which regional pronounce can be quite opposite, as an example venetians making any double single and romans making most single doubles) ... The "j" was once used in writing too, called "i consonantica" when it is followed by a vowel, it remained in historical names like Jacopo but became a "normal" i in - say - acciaio (that was once written acciajo).
cjfd 5y ago
The most important rules seem to be missing here. Most important is that most Italian words have emphasis on the second-to-last syllable. Some Italian words have emphasis on the third-to-last syllable, e.g. 'il semAforo' (the traffic light) but that is the exception. Putting emphasis in the right place is the most important thing that makes Italian sound like Italian. If you do just this it already starts to sound like Italian. Another important thing in pronouncing Italian is that the words have to flow together. It is like you should ignore that there are spaces between words. I suppose that already would come more or less naturally to singers. The rules that the article mentions about c and g are also quite important.
- wumpus 5y ago
  Sung languages and spoken ones are different. From these comments it sounds like you don't sing much. I recommend this 1996 book by McGee: Singing early music : the pronunciation of European languages in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance https://www.worldcat.org/title/singing-early-music-the-pronunciation-of-european-languages-in-the-late-middle-ages-and-renaissance/oclc/32665004 https://www.worldcat.org/title/singing-early-music-the-pronu...
- mojuba 5y ago
  I know at least two more languages where emphasis (stress) is standardized. In French and in Armenian it's always on the last syllable. With some exceptions of course, typically borrowed words, sometimes compound words. The advantage of this is, it helps the brain separate and recognize the words faster. When we speak, the words are mostly glued together and from the point of view of speech recognition it can take some trial and error before the brain or your speech-to-text system can understand where each word ends. The standard-accented languages (I'm sure there's a term for that in linguistics?) make the job a bit easier. Anyway, just a fun fact.
  - umanwizard 5y ago
    > With some exceptions of course, typically borrowed words, sometimes compound words. AFAIK there is no exception at all to this rule in French.
paozac 5y ago
If you learn the international phonetic alphabet there is no need for these primers.
- qalmakka 5y ago
  This. I've studied the IPA once, and now it's way easier to learn new words in languages I don't know. It kinda gets messy when representing strange sounds full of diacritics though, but I guess there's no good way around that.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  Keep in mind you have to be aware of the difference of a phonetic and a phonemic transcription
- aix1 5y ago
  IPA is an amazing tool, but learning how to pronounce unfamiliar words without consulting a dictionary (to look up IPA transcription) is also a useful skill.
silvanocerza 5y ago
Good primer I'd say but what @cjfd says it's true, the emphasis is really important and can change a lot your pronunciation, focusing on that is really important. There is a mistake in there though, gl is not always pronunced similar to the middle of the english word "million", it is only if it's followed by an i and not even in every case. For example in inglese, sigla, gloria, etc the gl is pronounced like in english. Instead in figli, raccogliere, etc the gl is pronounced similar to the middle of the word "million" because there is an i after it. But there are are exceptions like geroglifico, glissare, glicemia, ganglio, etc, in those gl is pronounced like in english even if there is an i after gl. Source: am italian. Feel free to ask questions. :)
- tomcooks 5y ago
  Gagliardo, ciglia, cogliere, I don't really see how the gl sounds like the ll in million
elisom78 5y ago
Italian is one of the most melodic languages in the world, but some words can be difficult to pronounce. A good way to practice diction is tongue twisters. These phrases work as a physical exercise for your tongue, lips, and cheeks. Here is a good selection of some tongue twisters: https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian
- jaclaz 5y ago
  > Here is a good selection of some tongue twisters: https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian ... though quite a few are regional/dialect and they may confuse a non-italian reader (and there are quite a few typos). It is not I believe a fault of the specific source, I guess that the fully Italian tongue-twisters are relatively few, as many are dialect related.
- tomcooks 5y ago
  https://youtu.be/y6jrUDY0U0A https://youtu.be/y6jrUDY0U0A Here you can find an accessible primer on Italian tongue twisters
nonsapreiche 5y ago
"Pizza" is not unvoiced z. Could be "razzo"
- kmm 5y ago
  In most English dialects, pizza is /ˈpitsə/, with unvoiced /t/ and /s/. Would you say it's not in yours? Things like this is why using example words to clarify pronunciation is often a bad idea, especially with a language as diverse as English.
  - nonsapreiche 5y ago
    In italian the zz in pizza is voiced loud, in razzo is unvoiced like in the example you made. And of course I assume that pizza is na italian world, and all english dialects that pronounce different from the original are wrong
    - darkwater 5y ago
      I think "razzo" pronunciation varies depending on the zone/speaker. It is often pronounced the same as "pizza", although it /shouldn't/.
      - jaclaz 5y ago
        Well, we have also razza and razza (as in race/breed and spoke/ray/stingray) and they are respectively /ˈrat.t͡sa/ and /ˈrad.d͡za/ where the difference in pronounciation is key to the meaning. Pizza is definitely /ˈpit.t͡sa/ (and both the t and the s are voiced). Razzo (rocket) is /ˈrad.d͡zo/, BUT razzolare is /rat.t͡soˈla.re/ . The z, single or double, is one of the tricky ones to pronounce properly, in Italian they are usually called zeta dura and zeta dolce "hard z" and "sweet z".
    - naniwaduni 5y ago
      It's pretty hard to pin this down firmly since attested pronunciations range wider than you seem to think, but based on what you've said in this thread, it seems like a good idea to sanity-check on the voiced/unvoiced distinction. In the following clips, [1] has voice, [2] has unvoiced: [1]: https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/3/k/3k_9459069_74_571981.mp3 https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/3/k/3k_9459069_74_57198... [2]: https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/s/x/sx_9001968_74_571981_1.mp3 https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/s/x/sx_9001968_74_57198...
tomcooks 5y ago
The best way to pronounce "gl" is to use the middle.ll in "million" while pushing the front of your tongue against your palate, moving it forward until the tip touches the back of your upper front teeth. It's basically identical to "lh" in Portuguese
nicwolff 5y ago
English Pronunciation: "Primer" meaning, as here, "an introductory text", is pronounced "primmer".
- naniwaduni 5y ago
  This is, apparently, regional!
giomasce 5y ago
It doesn't say anything about doubles, which is a rather important element in Italian pronunciation. What I've been told is that for non-Italians the best trick is to try to shorten the vowel before the double. This will naturally make the double longer, as it should be.

61 points by AceyMan 5y ago

barcoder 5y ago

It would be nice to hear an Italian teacher read this article

davidelettieri 5y ago
I'm Italian but not a teacher. The rules seems mostly reasonable but I think the author is wrong in the Diphthongs section. In the word "pietà" the "i" is not pronounced as in yarn. If you want an "i" as in yarn you need something like "iato". In my personal opinion (not at all an expert on languages) an English speaker should work mostly on "gn" and "gl" since in Italian they form a single sound together while English speaking people split the sounds in two parts like "g-n".
- qalmakka 5y ago
  I think you're mistaken about the 'y' part; what the author is trying to convey is that [i] in Italian is both the vowel /i/ and the consonant /j/ depending on the context. /j/ is typically rendered in English using [y] (but not always). Pietà is definitely /pje'ta/, not /pie'ta/, like the [i] in ieri /'jeri/ - at least that's how I've always pronounced that. It would have been better if Italian just kept using the letter [j] - it was invented by an Italian guy to solve this kind of ambiguity after all.
  - olau 5y ago
    I don't think the person is mistaken, I think people pronounce it in different ways depending on where they come from. The three examples here does not seem to be pronounced like ieri: https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ https://forvo.com/word/piet%C3%A0/ Perchance you're speaking a dialect? Happens to all of us. :) Not a native speaker and my Italian is terrible, but I've always loved the Italian i vowels. They are so clear and distinct.
    - riffraff 5y ago
      As a native, I do agree with the original (pietà is not pjetà). So maybe it is a regional pronunciation issue. Or maybe it's like someone who can feel that the proper plural of "figlio" (figli) would have a long "i" (figlî, in some old books) even if it's not really there anymore.
      - qalmakka 5y ago
        Italian phonology is clear - approximants like /j/ and /w/ always appear in diphthongs, unless in very rare occurrences; i.e. ài, èi, éi, òi, ói, ùi; àu, èu, éu -> /aj/, /εj/, /ej/, /ɔj/, /oj/, /uj/; /aw/, / εw/, /ew/. For instance, piede is /'pjede/, while tuorlo is /'tworlo/. IPA in Italian dictionaries is very rare, but the only examples I found specify /'pjeta/. Italian pronunciation has never been standardized by anyone, so pronunciation may vary, but unless my knowledge of phonology is completely wrong there's an appoximant in "pietà", like in pieno /'pjeno/ and piano /'pjano/. To avoid i to switch to /j/ there needs to be a "iato", which splits words onto two separate syllables. For instance, mormorio is /mormo'rio/, not /mormo'rjo/. In this case, the word gets split in syllables as mor-mo-RI-o, and the i doesn't become an approximant. Pietà is pie-TÀ, not pi-e-TÀ, because the ie is in a diphthong, so it's /je/.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    Gian Giorgio Trissino,. 1524 formalized the distinction. Prior to that it was just two variant shapes of the same letter. I saw it still being used on some street signs. Jonio, Jesolo, ...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 1_player 5y ago
  The closest phonetic approximation to "gn" is the "ny" in canyon, and the approximation to "gl" is the double l in billion.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  >... an English speaker should work mostly on ... ... and on double consonants (like BTW a number of Italians, which regional pronounce can be quite opposite, as an example venetians making any double single and romans making most single doubles) ... The "j" was once used in writing too, called "i consonantica" when it is followed by a vowel, it remained in historical names like Jacopo but became a "normal" i in - say - acciaio (that was once written acciajo).

cjfd 5y ago

The most important rules seem to be missing here. Most important is that most Italian words have emphasis on the second-to-last syllable. Some Italian words have emphasis on the third-to-last syllable, e.g. 'il semAforo' (the traffic light) but that is the exception. Putting emphasis in the right place is the most important thing that makes Italian sound like Italian. If you do just this it already starts to sound like Italian. Another important thing in pronouncing Italian is that the words have to flow together. It is like you should ignore that there are spaces between words. I suppose that already would come more or less naturally to singers. The rules that the article mentions about c and g are also quite important.

wumpus 5y ago
Sung languages and spoken ones are different. From these comments it sounds like you don't sing much. I recommend this 1996 book by McGee: Singing early music : the pronunciation of European languages in the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance https://www.worldcat.org/title/singing-early-music-the-pronunciation-of-european-languages-in-the-late-middle-ages-and-renaissance/oclc/32665004 https://www.worldcat.org/title/singing-early-music-the-pronu...
mojuba 5y ago
I know at least two more languages where emphasis (stress) is standardized. In French and in Armenian it's always on the last syllable. With some exceptions of course, typically borrowed words, sometimes compound words. The advantage of this is, it helps the brain separate and recognize the words faster. When we speak, the words are mostly glued together and from the point of view of speech recognition it can take some trial and error before the brain or your speech-to-text system can understand where each word ends. The standard-accented languages (I'm sure there's a term for that in linguistics?) make the job a bit easier. Anyway, just a fun fact.
- umanwizard 5y ago
  > With some exceptions of course, typically borrowed words, sometimes compound words. AFAIK there is no exception at all to this rule in French.

paozac 5y ago

If you learn the international phonetic alphabet there is no need for these primers.

qalmakka 5y ago
This. I've studied the IPA once, and now it's way easier to learn new words in languages I don't know. It kinda gets messy when representing strange sounds full of diacritics though, but I guess there's no good way around that.
ithkuil 5y ago
Keep in mind you have to be aware of the difference of a phonetic and a phonemic transcription
aix1 5y ago
IPA is an amazing tool, but learning how to pronounce unfamiliar words without consulting a dictionary (to look up IPA transcription) is also a useful skill.

silvanocerza 5y ago

Good primer I'd say but what @cjfd says it's true, the emphasis is really important and can change a lot your pronunciation, focusing on that is really important. There is a mistake in there though, gl is not always pronunced similar to the middle of the english word "million", it is only if it's followed by an i and not even in every case. For example in inglese, sigla, gloria, etc the gl is pronounced like in english. Instead in figli, raccogliere, etc the gl is pronounced similar to the middle of the word "million" because there is an i after it. But there are are exceptions like geroglifico, glissare, glicemia, ganglio, etc, in those gl is pronounced like in english even if there is an i after gl. Source: am italian. Feel free to ask questions. :)

tomcooks 5y ago
Gagliardo, ciglia, cogliere, I don't really see how the gl sounds like the ll in million

elisom78 5y ago

Italian is one of the most melodic languages in the world, but some words can be difficult to pronounce. A good way to practice diction is tongue twisters. These phrases work as a physical exercise for your tongue, lips, and cheeks. Here is a good selection of some tongue twisters: https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian

jaclaz 5y ago
> Here is a good selection of some tongue twisters: https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian https://ivypanda.com/tongue-twisters-italian ... though quite a few are regional/dialect and they may confuse a non-italian reader (and there are quite a few typos). It is not I believe a fault of the specific source, I guess that the fully Italian tongue-twisters are relatively few, as many are dialect related.
tomcooks 5y ago
https://youtu.be/y6jrUDY0U0A https://youtu.be/y6jrUDY0U0A Here you can find an accessible primer on Italian tongue twisters

nonsapreiche 5y ago

"Pizza" is not unvoiced z. Could be "razzo"

kmm 5y ago
In most English dialects, pizza is /ˈpitsə/, with unvoiced /t/ and /s/. Would you say it's not in yours? Things like this is why using example words to clarify pronunciation is often a bad idea, especially with a language as diverse as English.
- nonsapreiche 5y ago
  In italian the zz in pizza is voiced loud, in razzo is unvoiced like in the example you made. And of course I assume that pizza is na italian world, and all english dialects that pronounce different from the original are wrong
  - darkwater 5y ago
    I think "razzo" pronunciation varies depending on the zone/speaker. It is often pronounced the same as "pizza", although it /shouldn't/.
    - jaclaz 5y ago
      Well, we have also razza and razza (as in race/breed and spoke/ray/stingray) and they are respectively /ˈrat.t͡sa/ and /ˈrad.d͡za/ where the difference in pronounciation is key to the meaning. Pizza is definitely /ˈpit.t͡sa/ (and both the t and the s are voiced). Razzo (rocket) is /ˈrad.d͡zo/, BUT razzolare is /rat.t͡soˈla.re/ . The z, single or double, is one of the tricky ones to pronounce properly, in Italian they are usually called zeta dura and zeta dolce "hard z" and "sweet z".
  - naniwaduni 5y ago
    It's pretty hard to pin this down firmly since attested pronunciations range wider than you seem to think, but based on what you've said in this thread, it seems like a good idea to sanity-check on the voiced/unvoiced distinction. In the following clips, [1] has voice, [2] has unvoiced: [1]: https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/3/k/3k_9459069_74_571981.mp3 https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/3/k/3k_9459069_74_57198... [2]: https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/s/x/sx_9001968_74_571981_1.mp3 https://audio00.forvo.com/audios/mp3/s/x/sx_9001968_74_57198...

tomcooks 5y ago

The best way to pronounce "gl" is to use the middle.ll in "million" while pushing the front of your tongue against your palate, moving it forward until the tip touches the back of your upper front teeth. It's basically identical to "lh" in Portuguese

nicwolff 5y ago

English Pronunciation: "Primer" meaning, as here, "an introductory text", is pronounced "primmer".

naniwaduni 5y ago
This is, apparently, regional!

giomasce 5y ago

It doesn't say anything about doubles, which is a rather important element in Italian pronunciation. What I've been told is that for non-Italians the best trick is to try to shorten the vowel before the double. This will naturally make the double longer, as it should be.