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Restaurant prices in the 19th and 20th centuries (2009)
- telesilla 5y ago>[1987] However, at a top restaurant such as Masa’s in San Francisco a fixed-price meal runs $48 (almost certainly excluding drinks and tip), while diners at Berkeley’s innovative Chez Panisse can expect to pay at least $45. Gosh - I'm pretty sure the last time I walked out of Chez Panisse it wasn't for less than $250 each (with wine).. inflation surely doesn't count for this?`
- JumpCrisscross 5y agoDo we have an index of the ratio between the cost of fine dining and peasant/fast food over the last few centuries?
- bobthepanda 5y agoit might be hard to do, particularly for anything that was pre-industrial. aristocrats mostly ate in their homes with a massive kitchen, gardening, hunting staff. fine dining in a city needs a support base, and for a good deal of history there weren't enough people who could afford to eat out luxury food to support a fine dining scene.
- vkou 5y agoOverall inflation doesn't account for it. A dollar today is worth ~40 cents back then. Wage inflation for professionals living in San Francisco, however, does. A lot more people in SF are making ~$400,000/year, than were making ~$10,000/year, back then. Hence, the restaurant can charge ~4x, and still be fill its tables every night.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- daggersandscars 5y agoThere's multiple factors in play here. Inflation is one. Population growth is another. The Bay-area population went up by ~2 million people between 1990 and 2020. Even if the income distribution remains the same, the number of potential diners who can afford an expensive meal goes up. Income distribution is another. If the percentage of the population who could afford an expensive meal and would buy one goes up, the number of potential diners goes up even faster. Perceived social impact of an expensive meal is another factor. If more people believe there is social benefit in buying to an expensive meal, the number of potential diners goes up. This could be due to a larger pool of expensive meal buyers trying to impress each other, better awareness of expensive restaurants by the general population, etc. Edit: changed "going to an expensive meal" to "buying [...]"
- amyjess 5y ago> Population growth is another. The Bay-area population went up by ~2 million people between 1990 and 2020. Even if the income distribution remains the same, the number of potential diners who can afford an expensive meal goes up. And with that, the housing situation in the Bay Area has seen rents skyrocket disproportionately high compared with the rest of the country. At least some of the cost of the meal goes to the restaurant baking in their increased overhead, which again, is higher than it would be in the rest of the country. (and if Chez Panisse owns its space, you can exchange "rent" with "property tax")
- bcrosby95 5y agoNote that if Chez Panisse owns its space, it likely pays practically nothing in property taxes considering businesses benefit from prop 13 too.
- mannerheim 5y agoEven without rent or property tax, there's still opportunity cost. If they could make more money renting out the building than their business makes, it isn't worth it.
- Aunche 5y agoPart of it is that fine dining is much more labor intensive now than it used to be. Chocolate lava cake was at the pinnacle of fine dining desserts in 1987, but now it's considered rather pedestrian.
- tony0x02 5y agoSource? Just wondering where you got this info from.
- Aunche 5y agoJean-Georges allegedly invented the dessert in 1987, having recently received the highest possible rating from a NYT review. He later went on to be a 3 Michelin star chef. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_chocolate_cake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_chocolate_cake
- quickthrower2 5y agoCook it a bit longer and it’s a soufflé
- Mikeb85 5y agoNope, a proper lava cake is a layer of cake surrounding a layer of ganache. Under-cooking a chocolate cake is the lazy way. Also a soufflé has a high % of whipped egg whites versus a typical cake which has unwhipped eggs but a bit of baking powder.
- OJFord 5y agoTo put it politely. There must be vanishingly few places that'd consider themselves to offer fine dining and also wish to be seen serving it! I don't think that really has anything to do with it being labour intensive, nor suggests that it must be even more so in the post-lava-cake era though. It just 'went viral', was over done (no pun intended), and lost its mystique. The same no doubt happened to all manner of exotic (or once exotic) dishes before it.
- refurb 5y agoWhy would inflation measure some Veblen good only a small fraction of the population can afford? The price of Rolex watches has also massively increased, but that doesn’t go into inflation calculations either.
- paulpauper 5y ago1981 The chain restaurant TGI Friday’s charges $2.95 for its Plain Potato Skins appetizer, which comes with sour cream and chives for dipping, but $5.20 for Loaded Potato Skins which arrive with cheddar cheese and crumbled bacon. Seems way too much
- ximonn777 5y agoBefore 1971 gold backed currency. After its fiat with only backing a promise and price doubling every 15 years on average.
- msla 5y agoGold-backed currency is fiat, with government setting gold-money exchange rate. Besides, there were more bank runs back in the gold standard era.
- TheGigaChad 5y agoIdiot. Enjoy your inflation.
- Proven 5y ago> Gold-backed currency is fiat, with government setting gold-money exchange rate. Not all gold-backed money needs to be based on a fixed exchange rate, and secondly, gold coins and bars could be imported from where they were underpriced so exchange rates couldn't be arbitrary. > Besides, there were more bank runs back in the gold standard era. So what? What's wrong with that? Your money, your responsibility. It seems you prefer socialistic techniques of avoiding bank runs, like deposit insurance where even laborers without savings bear the risk of protecting richest person's savings deposits, and the Fed, where currency is debt is created out of absolutely nothing.
- gruez 5y ago>Gold-backed currency is fiat, with government setting gold-money exchange rate. The government can theoretically debase its currency at will, but how often does that happen? >Besides, there were more bank runs back in the gold standard era. Right, because there's a real risk that the bank/government won't be able to pay up the gold that was owed. These days it's not an issue because you can just print more money to fulfill the obligations.
- inglor_cz 5y ago"Gold-backed currency is fiat, with government setting gold-money exchange rate." Pedantically taken, yes. But outside of major wars, debasement of currency was rare. Compared to contemporary inflation stealthily eating away your savings, the difference is in practice stark.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mleonhard 5y agoThe information would be much more interesting if it were adjusted for inflation or purchasing-power.
- code_duck 5y agoI thought the non-adjusted prices were interesting. No idea what story it tells if you adjust it, but non adjusted, the prices were essentially the same from 1840-1925.
- choeger 5y agoYes. That's interesting. Your grandfather could tell you what a dinner should cost by his experience. How did that happen? Did wages not increase?
- dsr_ 5y agoThe data's not available before 1947, but the trend is clear: you're looking at the early part of a compound growth formula (with large annual variability). https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA/ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA/ US GDP per person has grown about 1% per year on average. Wages stopped increasing to match productivity in the early 1980s, and that trend continues.
- guerrilla 5y ago> Wages stopped increasing to match productivity in the early 1980s 1970s not 1980s: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
- mensetmanusman 5y agohttps://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
- bluGill 5y agoThe gold standard made inflation nearly impossible. Thus prices stayed the same long term.
- DavidWoof 5y ago> 1885...Two eggs, fried or boiled, accompanied by the invariable boiled potato, fetch from 10 to 15 cents; steak 15 cents; sirloin, 25 cents; plain omelet, 25 cents; 10c for two fried eggs, but 25c for a plain omelet? Did omelet mean something other other than eggs back then? Or is it that "omelet" implies cooked fresh, while boiled and fried eggs are cooked in bulk and served cold?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dmarchand90 5y agoYeah weird the egg based dishes consistently seem to outprice steak: 1860 The Globe, Salt Lake City: Porter House Steak (25¢), Ham & Eggs (37½¢), Bowl of Oyster Soup (1.00). 1865 The Pioneer Restaurant, Portland OR: Porter House Steak (20¢), Sirloin Steak (15¢), Ham & Eggs (25¢), Apple, Prune, or Pear Sauce (5¢), Cranberry, Apple, or Custard Pie (5¢).
- prawn 5y agoI wonder if it predated industrial-scale egg farming?
- jareklupinski 5y agocame here to ask this: how was steak less expensive than ham'n eggs?
- inglor_cz 5y agoAmerican West was very good for raising enormous herds of cattle. Cowboys are literally boys who take care of cows.
- Broken_Hippo 5y agoEggs were a only made in spring and summer
- canadianfella 5y ago
- legulere 5y agoWould be interesting to compare those values to typical wages of the time. How many hours did you need to work for a restaurant visit? Most products are far cheaper in terms of hours of labour needed to produce them nowadays, while services and restaurants largely stayed the same in labour-intensity, so inflation-adjusted numbers would not be very helpful.
- enkid 5y agoI'm not sure about restaurants not getting more efficient. Even things like microwaves, refrigeration and automated fryers and cash registers seem like they would drive up efficiency, not to mention the improvements in logistics and food distribution.
- legulere 5y agoThose probably lead to a few percent of efficiency increases. In agriculture already you see orders of magnitude increases if you look in how many people used to work in it and how many people work in it today. In Industry the efficiency increases can be even higher.
- inglor_cz 5y agoTakeaways / fast food chains are much more efficient than standard restaurants, and the prices reflect that.
- michaelbuckbee 5y agoThe dinners aren't the same across the years so it's not a very apples to apples charting of it, but I plucked some representative values out and did the inflation lookups on them here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dWiKEfbXmDGcQUYMI-5xGlx5cDK3rF0ZGeZlcRn77ho/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dWiKEfbXmDGcQUYMI-5x...
- ardit33 5y agoThe old menus (from the 1800s), just read as much more healthy wholesome food. It seems that sometimes after the 50s, restaurant/dinner food quality took a dive and it looks like mass market food you find a groecery store now. Recently, I remember in Williamsburg, there used to be a food/restaurant store where you could by home cooked style meals. Eg, greens, beans, turkey, brisket and other home style food. It was cheap and good. Not sure what happened to those stores, but the replacements, that sell 'build your salad bowl' type of food feel more sterile and just not as good. eg. There is a huge difference in taste between a good local burito place, then going to Chipoltle and such.
- rishikeshs 5y agoWhen the food became fast to make, the quality and nutrition value decreased!
- whathappenedto 5y agoI feel like more restaurants have been going with cheap wheat-based ingredients and heavy batter deep frying. The trend towards fried chicken sandwiches reduces the "meat" part of the sandwich only 50% meat. Happy hours consist of flatbreads, fries, sliders, artichoke dip (mostly oil, and chips to dip), egg rolls, bruschetta, wings with heavy breading, etc. Basically even medium-tier restaurants are evolving into bar and diner food, and making it seem like a trendy thing.
- syedkarim 5y agoThe old menus seem amazingly bland.
- readflaggedcomm 5y agoThey don't provide enough information to judge that.
- TheGigaChad 5y agoBut it lacks gluten free vegan dishes, that can be eaten with a mask on.
- arh68 5y agoInteresting, the prices and choices. See also https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index and https://github.com/TheEconomist/big-mac-data https://github.com/TheEconomist/big-mac-data , though you may want more historicals.
- fy20 5y agoIt's worth mentioning that the "Big Mac index" only works as a comparison tool in some countries. In my country, before the Euro was adopted in 2015, a Big Mac was the same price as the rest of Europe, which for the purchasing power here was a lot of money. McDonalds was seen as a luxury, only for tourists and the middle class who wanted to show off their wealth. For the same price or often less, you could go out to pretty much any other restaurant in the city and get lunch. Even now there are still a one or two places I know where you can lunch for less than a Big Mac meal (maybe without drinks), but we've had a lot of inflation since the Euro was adopted, so nowadays the McDonalds meal is usually cheaper, and no longer considered a luxury.
- sunshineforever 5y agoCan you give some examples of prices? Ive always thought those fast food meals were silly and overly expensive. Like, the hamburger is 4$ alone BUT add on some terrible cheap pre frozen fries and soda that costs like 5 pennies and there's your 'meal' for 10$. Completely crazy! And fast food fries really are terrible. I don't know what they do wrong but I used to work at a restaurant that served pre frozen fries that were quite good, so it's not even that.
- 6510 5y agoYou still have to cut the fries. It is only reasonable to freeze them if you fry small amounts at a time. I don't see much extra labor in cutting them on demand. Sure, you get to make slightly more if there is a lot of demand. Should we sacrifice quality for that?
- picodguyo 5y agoA lot is said about portion sizes nowadays, but that chicken dinner from 1960 looks like a gut buster!
- easymovet 5y agoTurns out monetary expansion does cause price inflation: “ 1849 Sky high “gold rush” prices at a fashionable eating house in San Francisco: Corned Beef & Cabbage (1.25), Sweet Potatoes (50¢), Apple Pie (75¢).”
- wiswindsurf 5y agoDoes anyone remember when McDonalds last advertised that you could have a meal with change back from you $1?
- k__ 5y agoI remember, they had chicken burgers for 1€ and a year later they raised the price about 50%.
- kortilla 5y agoI remember 39 cent cheeseburgers one day a week (maybe Wednesday?) and 29 cent hamburgers another (Sunday) during the 90s.
- mtnGoat 5y agoI remember when BK whoppers were $1. I miss those days.
- sunshineforever 5y agoAnd I just paid 2.80 for two of the cheapest cheeseburgers.
- jimmysong 5y agoThis is very interesting when looking at prices in terms of gold. During the 19th century, US dollars were backed by somewhere around 1.5g - 1.6g of gold, which is worth around $90 today. So multiply by 90 and you start getting reasonable prices: 1833 - cheap meal for 1 shilling = $10.80 1834 - moderate meal for 15 3/4 cents = $14.18 1838 - beef steak 25 cents = $22.25 1849 - corned beef and cabbage = $112.50 and so on. A very rough rule of thumb is multiply by 100 and that's the rough price in gold today. Things weren't all that cheap and monetary expansion since the devaluation of the dollar makes these prices seem much cheaper than they are.
- sunshineforever 5y agoThis makes me think of the Sisters of the Road in Portland, Ore. It's technically meant for the homeless/poor, but they serve a very nice lunch or dinner for $1.50 or $1.25 (iirc). I love that they charge that small amount, because it makes it more sustainable and less of a pure charity where every meal is 100% based on some kind of donation budget. I've always thought that there should be more organizations like this where the charity is that the service is provided at cost, in a profit free way. By using this model charities wouldn't be utterly dependent on donations. Its such a beautiful way to fairly utilize capitalism for justice. I'm not sure if the $1.50 completely covers the cost of the meal but its completely possible. If you ever felt like going there for a meal I wouldn't discourage you. It's actually a nice thing to try to interact with homeless people on an equal basis. More than that it's also valuable life experience to see how different life can be from your own. I think my experiences of homeless life taught me things about psychology and humans nature that I couldn't have learned any other way and I feel experienced in life in ways that are hard to explain. Its like going to another country to learn the language. If you do go, the house would probably appreciate a $5 bill for the meal, which is 100% worth that. I will say that Sisters is typically fully booked up every day. So you'd want to dine there on a day where they weren't booked up, so as to not deny a space to someone who needed it.
- rootusrootus 5y ago> they serve a very nice lunch or dinner for $1.50 or $1.25 (iirc). During covid, they're charging nothing at all.
- prawn 5y agoMade me wonder what dining out would cost if the labour were free, and/or if the building (rent, mortgage, etc) were free. I assume those are the two significant costs of any restaurant.
- leetcrew 5y agoit depends a lot on the kind of food. I once asked the owner about this when I worked at a pizza place. the "house salad" was almost straight profit; lettuce, tomatoes, onions, etc. cost basically nothing when purchased in bulk. the salads that included cheese were more like a 300% markup over the material inputs. interestingly, wings were sold at a slight loss. I guess you don't want a whole group to pick a different pizza place just because one person wanted wings.
- jacobwilliamroy 5y agoI really think this information would have been much easier for me to digest as a chart rather than the current format. I had a head injury recently and my head actually hurts trying to parse and understand this information in the way it is presented.
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