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And yet it amazes me that people are still pushing for more government power and more government controlled services. HN's audience of all people should be kee

And yet it amazes me that people are still pushing for more government power and more government controlled services. HN's audience of all people should be keenly aware of the US government's tendency towards authoritarianism.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago
As long as its outsourced to tech companies with the right politics, it's cool with a large segment of the posters here, which is rather astonishing.
antonzabirko 5y ago
Better than private sector
- xvector 5y ago
  Not mutually exclusive
ransom1538 5y ago
We don't want the government to have power! We just want them to be responsible for our education, health care, water, policing, energy, laws, foreign intelligence, taxing, safety, banking, college, protection, transportation, international affairs, court system, prison system, retirement and food supply.
- tekproxy 5y ago
  Also military, environment, mail, immigration, trade, and my personal favorite: currency.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
  It's perfectly possible to improve, say, environmental protection without any drone programs. Most of Europe does so, for example. So it's just mindless cynicism to argue "more government" / "no less government" / blablabla. The specific American infatuation with anything that kills is, well, specific. Using all that wasteful killing/incarcerating/surveilling as an argument not against the Military-Industrial-Complex but, yet again, to diminish policies that might actually help people, is part and parcel of exactly the approach that ends with dead civilians domestically and abroad.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ransom1538 5y ago
    "The specific American infatuation with anything that kills is, well, specific. Using all that wasteful killing/incarcerating/surveilling" America is militarized due to 20th century European "killing/incarcerating/surveilling." Europe perfected these methods.
- 6510 5y ago
  Here is a fun suggestion: Imagine each of those was an entirely separate institution with its own properly named tax and its own elections. i.e. We all pay education tax, the elected board makes a budget within the boundaries of its charter. We replace the dinosaur one time election with a "change your vote whenever you like" system something like a coalition needs 51% to be eligible to take office and less than 40% to lose it. Salaries should be glorious and the officials shall be [financially] accountable beyond death. People will not care much and not modify their vote very often until things get bad enough. The military [for example] can go to war without the usual bribing of senile old men but if you take the country to war you probably wont be in charge of the war effort and if people really don't want the war they will rappidly cycle though different formations until they are rid of it.
  - warkdarrior 5y ago
    Why should I pay for the education of other people's children? Or the roads they use in their neighborhoods? Or for keeping their food supply safe? Or for policing their neighborhoods? People should just pay for the services they use. Do you need safety when you walk in your local park? Hire a bodyguard. Do you need to make sure your food is not laced with toxic stuff? Hire a taster. etc. etc. This way everybody saves lots of money and each of us pays only for what we need.
- busymom0 5y ago
  And we also want the corrupt incompetent bloated government to disarm the citizens and censor all offensive speech. Because the corrupt incompetent government is surely not going to do some bad things ever.
rapind 5y ago
I don’t think it’s fair or a good idea to paint all of government (a massive employer) with these numbskulls. Let’s just throw out the bad instead.
- roenxi 5y ago
  None of this has happened because people in the government started out bad. It is because there is overwhelming evidence that if you set up a powerful organisation, bad people will do what they must to be in charge of it. Unscrupulous, power hungry liars work just as hard as any of us. Possibly more so because the rewards of power are higher for someone who is willing to abuse it. If the strategy is to centralise power, there is not a system nor a will in the world that can stop that power being abused. It is really just a matter of how long and how badly.
  - tartoran 5y ago
    Even if power is decentralized nothing stops multiple power hungry evil individuals form taking over and abusing their offices. Look at the government, most of it if not all branches are corrupted. It’s true that if a Hitler type comes along they could do a lot more damage grabbing a centralized power system.
- savant_penguin 5y ago
  Public schools have sucked for more than half a century. The "let's throw out the bad" just never happens. Terrible government services are hardly ever allowed to fail and disappear
  - busymom0 5y ago
    Public schools are a perfect example of how neither money nor more government ever helps if the fundamental problems aren't fixed. 13 Baltimore City High Schools, Zero Students Proficient in Math: https://archive.ph/VfciU https://archive.ph/VfciU Baltimore is 2nd in per pupil spending: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-21/news/bs-md-ci-census-schools-20130521_1_school-system-per-pupil-spending-districts http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-21/news/bs-md-ci-ce...
sudosysgen 5y ago
Why are we assuming that the private sector is any better? If you want to see what violence the private sector is capable of, look up the Nisour Square massacre : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre Anyone acquainted deeply with American history would be aware that yes, the government can tend towards authoritarianism, and often goes fully into it. But the American private sector is even more enthusiastic to commit atrocities and enforce the authority of the few on the many.
- xvector 5y ago
  Why are you assuming that I want the private sector to grow in power? These aren't mutually exclusive. > But the American private sector is even more enthusiastic to commit atrocities and enforce the authority of the few on the many. Shows a keen misunderstanding of American history. The US government commits far more atrocities on a yearly basis than the private sector ever has. I could fill up this whole page with links describing absurd infringements on our constitutional rights by the US government, many of them ongoing to this day.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    How, practically, do you want to limit government power in a way that doesn't increase the power of the private sector? I spoke of enthusiasm, not volume. The private sector commits less atrocities insofar as the government prevents them to. If you want a good historical example, recall that one of the main reasons for the American Revolution was that the private sector was angry at the Crown that they couldn't commit as much atrocities and steal as much land from the natives as they wanted to.
    - elefanten 5y ago
      >the private sector was angry at the Crown that they couldn't commit as much atrocities and steal as much land from the natives as they wanted to. Never heard that one. Sources?
nemo44x 5y ago
We live in a time where so called progressives defend pentagon generals from scrutiny and rally around the FBI.
- the_optimist 5y ago
  Amazingly this draws “downvotes,” while right in front of our eyes, the pundits, politicians, and secret police high kick to shared tunes, arms locked. Internet vote all you like but reality is there glaring right in our eyeballs.
maybelsyrup 5y ago
He did this stuff as a private contractor. "Government power", "private power" -- it's power that's the problem, not what we call it. Why are we still so wrapped up in this Reaganite semantics about "government" decades later?
- xvector 5y ago
  > Why are we still so wrapped up in this Reaganite semantics about "government" decades later? because no one is calling for more private power but a ton of people are constantly calling for more government power
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    So how do you block private power if not via legislation? Legislation and its enforcement are a government power.
  - rtpg 5y ago
    Loads of people are calling for more private power! People who defend the contractor-ization of American workers are asking for private power. People who argue for billionaires to have the right to launch themselves into orbit are arguing for more private power. People who argue for letting employers pick and choose what healthcare to provide their workers are asking for more private power. Many discussions about gov't control are usually within the context of private power already existing. Of course those same people insist on a hyper-atomization of the topics to make it less clearcut. That's why context is important folks
  - pottertheotter 5y ago
    People are calling for more private power every day. In fact, I think that if I had to pick one central theme behind American conservatism it would be that.
  - hanniabu 5y ago
    Are you one of those people that want to shut down the USPS?
swayvil 5y ago
One strong argument for more government power and control is of course the present "covid crisis". Which is amazingly convenient for the government. And that should definitely make you think.
- admax88q 5y ago
  Makes us think what exactly? Don't leave thoughts unfinished, if you have something interesting to add you should share with the rest of the class.
flamble 5y ago
I find it incredible that anyone could have such a cartoonish view of the world that the completely secretive, unaccountable and independent security apparatus, which has totally liberated itself from democratic control or oversight, is simply "the government" in a way undifferentiated from say, the post office. What is especially galling about it is that the entire monstrosity was constituted specifically in order to maintain the structures of private power and profit and has never deviated from that goal. The entire murder machine exists to benefit the corporate power that you absurdly imagine as some kind of countervailing force. How do you account for the fact that military and CIA involvement overseas is systematically in the service of imposing minimal-government orthodoxy, from Chile 1973 to the Contras, Grenada, Iraq, Cuba, etc?

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

As long as its outsourced to tech companies with the right politics, it's cool with a large segment of the posters here, which is rather astonishing.

antonzabirko 5y ago

Better than private sector

xvector 5y ago
Not mutually exclusive

ransom1538 5y ago

We don't want the government to have power! We just want them to be responsible for our education, health care, water, policing, energy, laws, foreign intelligence, taxing, safety, banking, college, protection, transportation, international affairs, court system, prison system, retirement and food supply.

tekproxy 5y ago
Also military, environment, mail, immigration, trade, and my personal favorite: currency.
IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
It's perfectly possible to improve, say, environmental protection without any drone programs. Most of Europe does so, for example. So it's just mindless cynicism to argue "more government" / "no less government" / blablabla. The specific American infatuation with anything that kills is, well, specific. Using all that wasteful killing/incarcerating/surveilling as an argument not against the Military-Industrial-Complex but, yet again, to diminish policies that might actually help people, is part and parcel of exactly the approach that ends with dead civilians domestically and abroad.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ransom1538 5y ago
  "The specific American infatuation with anything that kills is, well, specific. Using all that wasteful killing/incarcerating/surveilling" America is militarized due to 20th century European "killing/incarcerating/surveilling." Europe perfected these methods.
6510 5y ago
Here is a fun suggestion: Imagine each of those was an entirely separate institution with its own properly named tax and its own elections. i.e. We all pay education tax, the elected board makes a budget within the boundaries of its charter. We replace the dinosaur one time election with a "change your vote whenever you like" system something like a coalition needs 51% to be eligible to take office and less than 40% to lose it. Salaries should be glorious and the officials shall be [financially] accountable beyond death. People will not care much and not modify their vote very often until things get bad enough. The military [for example] can go to war without the usual bribing of senile old men but if you take the country to war you probably wont be in charge of the war effort and if people really don't want the war they will rappidly cycle though different formations until they are rid of it.
- warkdarrior 5y ago
  Why should I pay for the education of other people's children? Or the roads they use in their neighborhoods? Or for keeping their food supply safe? Or for policing their neighborhoods? People should just pay for the services they use. Do you need safety when you walk in your local park? Hire a bodyguard. Do you need to make sure your food is not laced with toxic stuff? Hire a taster. etc. etc. This way everybody saves lots of money and each of us pays only for what we need.
busymom0 5y ago
And we also want the corrupt incompetent bloated government to disarm the citizens and censor all offensive speech. Because the corrupt incompetent government is surely not going to do some bad things ever.

rapind 5y ago

I don’t think it’s fair or a good idea to paint all of government (a massive employer) with these numbskulls. Let’s just throw out the bad instead.

roenxi 5y ago
None of this has happened because people in the government started out bad. It is because there is overwhelming evidence that if you set up a powerful organisation, bad people will do what they must to be in charge of it. Unscrupulous, power hungry liars work just as hard as any of us. Possibly more so because the rewards of power are higher for someone who is willing to abuse it. If the strategy is to centralise power, there is not a system nor a will in the world that can stop that power being abused. It is really just a matter of how long and how badly.
- tartoran 5y ago
  Even if power is decentralized nothing stops multiple power hungry evil individuals form taking over and abusing their offices. Look at the government, most of it if not all branches are corrupted. It’s true that if a Hitler type comes along they could do a lot more damage grabbing a centralized power system.
savant_penguin 5y ago
Public schools have sucked for more than half a century. The "let's throw out the bad" just never happens. Terrible government services are hardly ever allowed to fail and disappear
- busymom0 5y ago
  Public schools are a perfect example of how neither money nor more government ever helps if the fundamental problems aren't fixed. 13 Baltimore City High Schools, Zero Students Proficient in Math: https://archive.ph/VfciU https://archive.ph/VfciU Baltimore is 2nd in per pupil spending: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-21/news/bs-md-ci-census-schools-20130521_1_school-system-per-pupil-spending-districts http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-21/news/bs-md-ci-ce...

sudosysgen 5y ago

Why are we assuming that the private sector is any better? If you want to see what violence the private sector is capable of, look up the Nisour Square massacre : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre Anyone acquainted deeply with American history would be aware that yes, the government can tend towards authoritarianism, and often goes fully into it. But the American private sector is even more enthusiastic to commit atrocities and enforce the authority of the few on the many.

xvector 5y ago
Why are you assuming that I want the private sector to grow in power? These aren't mutually exclusive. > But the American private sector is even more enthusiastic to commit atrocities and enforce the authority of the few on the many. Shows a keen misunderstanding of American history. The US government commits far more atrocities on a yearly basis than the private sector ever has. I could fill up this whole page with links describing absurd infringements on our constitutional rights by the US government, many of them ongoing to this day.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  How, practically, do you want to limit government power in a way that doesn't increase the power of the private sector? I spoke of enthusiasm, not volume. The private sector commits less atrocities insofar as the government prevents them to. If you want a good historical example, recall that one of the main reasons for the American Revolution was that the private sector was angry at the Crown that they couldn't commit as much atrocities and steal as much land from the natives as they wanted to.
  - elefanten 5y ago
    >the private sector was angry at the Crown that they couldn't commit as much atrocities and steal as much land from the natives as they wanted to. Never heard that one. Sources?

nemo44x 5y ago

We live in a time where so called progressives defend pentagon generals from scrutiny and rally around the FBI.

the_optimist 5y ago
Amazingly this draws “downvotes,” while right in front of our eyes, the pundits, politicians, and secret police high kick to shared tunes, arms locked. Internet vote all you like but reality is there glaring right in our eyeballs.

maybelsyrup 5y ago

He did this stuff as a private contractor. "Government power", "private power" -- it's power that's the problem, not what we call it. Why are we still so wrapped up in this Reaganite semantics about "government" decades later?

xvector 5y ago
> Why are we still so wrapped up in this Reaganite semantics about "government" decades later? because no one is calling for more private power but a ton of people are constantly calling for more government power
- lostlogin 5y ago
  So how do you block private power if not via legislation? Legislation and its enforcement are a government power.
- rtpg 5y ago
  Loads of people are calling for more private power! People who defend the contractor-ization of American workers are asking for private power. People who argue for billionaires to have the right to launch themselves into orbit are arguing for more private power. People who argue for letting employers pick and choose what healthcare to provide their workers are asking for more private power. Many discussions about gov't control are usually within the context of private power already existing. Of course those same people insist on a hyper-atomization of the topics to make it less clearcut. That's why context is important folks
- pottertheotter 5y ago
  People are calling for more private power every day. In fact, I think that if I had to pick one central theme behind American conservatism it would be that.
- hanniabu 5y ago
  Are you one of those people that want to shut down the USPS?

swayvil 5y ago

One strong argument for more government power and control is of course the present "covid crisis". Which is amazingly convenient for the government. And that should definitely make you think.

admax88q 5y ago
Makes us think what exactly? Don't leave thoughts unfinished, if you have something interesting to add you should share with the rest of the class.

flamble 5y ago

I find it incredible that anyone could have such a cartoonish view of the world that the completely secretive, unaccountable and independent security apparatus, which has totally liberated itself from democratic control or oversight, is simply "the government" in a way undifferentiated from say, the post office. What is especially galling about it is that the entire monstrosity was constituted specifically in order to maintain the structures of private power and profit and has never deviated from that goal. The entire murder machine exists to benefit the corporate power that you absurdly imagine as some kind of countervailing force. How do you account for the fact that military and CIA involvement overseas is systematically in the service of imposing minimal-government orthodoxy, from Chile 1973 to the Contras, Grenada, Iraq, Cuba, etc?