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As a Linux developer, I can test my site in Firefox and Chrome (including on my CI). I can't test it in Safari. The fact that it differs the most makes it a rea

by remram 5y ago

As a Linux developer, I can test my site in Firefox and Chrome (including on my CI). I can't test it in Safari. The fact that it differs the most makes it a real pain. I don't really care whether an iOS developer considers this "invalid". My apps support platforms that I can afford to test on, and those that are compatible.

yongjik 5y ago
I don't know how faithful it is, but I recently discovered playwright and it contains a webkit build (even on Linux) which is (in theory) close enough to Safari for web UI testing.
- bkallus 5y ago
  suckless.org's surf could work too.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
I understand why Apple is doing it, but what does it hurt if I develop for Safari on Windows? Oh no you have to compile the app and support on Windows? Gimme a break. $1 Trillion company and they can't make that work is nothing short of a joke. The OS wars are nothing like they were in the 90s. Apple really needs to wake the hell up. Steve Balmer said it best: "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!"
- woah 5y ago
  And Steve Ballmer really backed that up by making it possible to compile and test Windows and Microsoft products on every Linux distribution
- dTal 5y ago
  >I understand why Apple is doing it Do you? It sounds like you're implying that they can't do it, despite also pointing out that they easily could.
  - my123 5y ago
    They did the technical work to allow WebKit to build on Windows: https://webkit.org/webkit-on-windows/ https://webkit.org/webkit-on-windows/ That's the AppleWin port which relies on non-redistributable libraries, using the iTunes compatibility libraries. There's also upstream the WinCairo port, which is redistributable. (can be downloaded from Buildbot at https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/BuildingCairoOnWindows#DownloadbuildartifactsfromBuildbot https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/BuildingCairoOnWindows#Download...) It's just that Apple doesn't want to make Safari as a whole available on Windows, while making it easy for others to develop browsers using that same engine - even on Windows.
    - D13Fd 5y ago
      They used to distribute Safari on Windows. Back then it had little adoption.
      - jefftk 5y ago
        Little adoption among users, but still super useful to developers. I wish they still did. (WebKit isn't enough; I often need to test Safari behavior specifically)
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Well it hurts because your company might not buy you a Mac.
- yellowfish 5y ago
  honestly why develop for safari anyway? you can't really complain about apple if you keep bending over backwards to support their software
  - Leherenn 5y ago
    iOS has around 75% of the mobile apps revenues apparently.
    - emn13 5y ago
      In the US, I assume? Also, note that app stores aren't the only revenue, and precisely because the web does not work as well on ios devices, this number will be slightly biased in apples case.
      - Leherenn 5y ago
        It appears to be globally, though it depends on what you count exactly (65% of the total revenues, I was off sorry, but 80% of all subscription revenues). The reality is that the hundreds of millions in poorer countries with Android spend peanuts compared to rich countries. https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/ https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/ But whatever the exact number, the point stands. In most cases, not supporting iOS is a silly business decision.
        ksec 5y ago
        iOS number includes China Market, while Android's dont. So that distort the numbers a bit. But yes, the main point still stands.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    If up to 75% of paying customers browsing on mobile use safari would you serve them a broken website? Remember that 100% of browsers in iOS is safari. Everything else is just Safari with a skin. If I could I would block apple users out with a warning about their broken browser but I doubt any business survive for long if they had a habit of leaving money on the table.
jdavis703 5y ago
Why can’t you use BrowserStack or a similar solution to do your MacOS testing? Because this is the same situation MacOS web developers encounter when testing Edge on Windows.
- barryvan 5y ago
  ...except that Microsoft makes freely available Windows 10 virtual machine images for testing. [1] Apple expects you to buy a device (several if you need to test multiple iOS and iPadOS versions) or pay a third-party, BriwserStack, which is laggy and an additional cost. [1] https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/v...
- galvin 5y ago
  You probably don't need to test Edge on Windows if you are already testing Chrome since it's the same engine. If you really want to you can test Edge on MacOS¹ or you can use the Windows virtual machines² that Microsoft provides for free. 1. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge 2. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/v...
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    It's the same engine, but capabilities could be different: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence
  - jefftk 5y ago
    No need to use a VM; just download and run: https://www.microsoftedgeinsider.com/en-us/download https://www.microsoftedgeinsider.com/en-us/download
- Dah00n 5y ago
  Edge is chromium. You can test it just fine from a Mac.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
my123 5y ago
The officially recommended way to test WebKit on Linux is to use the Epiphany browser shipped in GNOME, which shares the same engine (and a quite similar UI even). Technical previews synchronised with the Safari Technology Preview available at https://webkit.org/downloads/ https://webkit.org/downloads/ too.
- asddubs 5y ago
  can't test stuff like ITP though. I ended up just buying an iphone 6s for $50
  - my123 5y ago
    ITP is part of Epiphany nowadays too: https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2020/09/16/epiphany-3-38-and-webkitgtk-2-30/ https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2020/09/16/epiphany-3-38-... And it is part of WebKit's code base, not separately as only part of Safari. Consider Safari as just a UI layer.
    - asddubs 5y ago
      oh nice, it wasn't when I was first implementing ITP related stuff, that's good to know.

by remram 5y ago

yongjik 5y ago

I don't know how faithful it is, but I recently discovered playwright and it contains a webkit build (even on Linux) which is (in theory) close enough to Safari for web UI testing.

bkallus 5y ago
suckless.org's surf could work too.

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

I understand why Apple is doing it, but what does it hurt if I develop for Safari on Windows? Oh no you have to compile the app and support on Windows? Gimme a break. $1 Trillion company and they can't make that work is nothing short of a joke. The OS wars are nothing like they were in the 90s. Apple really needs to wake the hell up. Steve Balmer said it best: "DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!"

woah 5y ago
And Steve Ballmer really backed that up by making it possible to compile and test Windows and Microsoft products on every Linux distribution
dTal 5y ago
>I understand why Apple is doing it Do you? It sounds like you're implying that they can't do it, despite also pointing out that they easily could.
- my123 5y ago
  They did the technical work to allow WebKit to build on Windows: https://webkit.org/webkit-on-windows/ https://webkit.org/webkit-on-windows/ That's the AppleWin port which relies on non-redistributable libraries, using the iTunes compatibility libraries. There's also upstream the WinCairo port, which is redistributable. (can be downloaded from Buildbot at https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/BuildingCairoOnWindows#DownloadbuildartifactsfromBuildbot https://trac.webkit.org/wiki/BuildingCairoOnWindows#Download...) It's just that Apple doesn't want to make Safari as a whole available on Windows, while making it easy for others to develop browsers using that same engine - even on Windows.
  - D13Fd 5y ago
    They used to distribute Safari on Windows. Back then it had little adoption.
    - jefftk 5y ago
      Little adoption among users, but still super useful to developers. I wish they still did. (WebKit isn't enough; I often need to test Safari behavior specifically)
emodendroket 5y ago
Well it hurts because your company might not buy you a Mac.
yellowfish 5y ago
honestly why develop for safari anyway? you can't really complain about apple if you keep bending over backwards to support their software
- Leherenn 5y ago
  iOS has around 75% of the mobile apps revenues apparently.
  - emn13 5y ago
    In the US, I assume? Also, note that app stores aren't the only revenue, and precisely because the web does not work as well on ios devices, this number will be slightly biased in apples case.
    - Leherenn 5y ago
      It appears to be globally, though it depends on what you count exactly (65% of the total revenues, I was off sorry, but 80% of all subscription revenues). The reality is that the hundreds of millions in poorer countries with Android spend peanuts compared to rich countries. https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/ https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/ But whatever the exact number, the point stands. In most cases, not supporting iOS is a silly business decision.
      - ksec 5y ago
        iOS number includes China Market, while Android's dont. So that distort the numbers a bit. But yes, the main point still stands.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  If up to 75% of paying customers browsing on mobile use safari would you serve them a broken website? Remember that 100% of browsers in iOS is safari. Everything else is just Safari with a skin. If I could I would block apple users out with a warning about their broken browser but I doubt any business survive for long if they had a habit of leaving money on the table.

jdavis703 5y ago

Why can’t you use BrowserStack or a similar solution to do your MacOS testing? Because this is the same situation MacOS web developers encounter when testing Edge on Windows.

barryvan 5y ago
...except that Microsoft makes freely available Windows 10 virtual machine images for testing. [1] Apple expects you to buy a device (several if you need to test multiple iOS and iPadOS versions) or pay a third-party, BriwserStack, which is laggy and an additional cost. [1] https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/v...
galvin 5y ago
You probably don't need to test Edge on Windows if you are already testing Chrome since it's the same engine. If you really want to you can test Edge on MacOS¹ or you can use the Windows virtual machines² that Microsoft provides for free. 1. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/edge 2. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/v...
- dmitriid 5y ago
  It's the same engine, but capabilities could be different: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence
- jefftk 5y ago
  No need to use a VM; just download and run: https://www.microsoftedgeinsider.com/en-us/download https://www.microsoftedgeinsider.com/en-us/download
Dah00n 5y ago
Edge is chromium. You can test it just fine from a Mac.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

my123 5y ago

The officially recommended way to test WebKit on Linux is to use the Epiphany browser shipped in GNOME, which shares the same engine (and a quite similar UI even). Technical previews synchronised with the Safari Technology Preview available at https://webkit.org/downloads/ https://webkit.org/downloads/ too.

asddubs 5y ago
can't test stuff like ITP though. I ended up just buying an iphone 6s for $50
- my123 5y ago
  ITP is part of Epiphany nowadays too: https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2020/09/16/epiphany-3-38-and-webkitgtk-2-30/ https://blogs.gnome.org/mcatanzaro/2020/09/16/epiphany-3-38-... And it is part of WebKit's code base, not separately as only part of Safari. Consider Safari as just a UI layer.
  - asddubs 5y ago
    oh nice, it wasn't when I was first implementing ITP related stuff, that's good to know.