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This is a stake through the heart of efforts to promote COVID-19 EUA vaccines to the vaccine-hesitant. The CDC is going to tell us the fully vaccinated need bo

This is a stake through the heart of efforts to promote COVID-19 EUA vaccines to the vaccine-hesitant. The CDC is going to tell us the fully vaccinated need booster shots in the fall. Anyone who hasn't gotten a shot yet will see through the efforts to get them vaccinated: what's the point, if natural infections are the only way to get protective immunity? I'm making the best of our predicament. Tweeted yesterday about having fun commiserating with the unfortunate masked employee at the grocery store: https://twitter.com/TaxiCabJesus/status/1420989505163567107 https://twitter.com/TaxiCabJesus/status/1420989505163567107

somewhereoutth 5y ago
With this comment we realize that the American experiment has essentially failed - and that in fact, left to their own devices, with only 'freedom' to guide them, people will inevitably devolve into mindless cretins.
- InTheArena 5y ago
  If you think that this is the failure of American experiment, you are deeply ignorant of the liberal human rights infested democracy in which you either live or do not live.
- hattmall 5y ago
  Natural immunity would seem superior as there are many more breakthrough cases in vaccinated vs reinfections.
smorgusofborg 5y ago
> what's the point, if natural infections are the only way to get protective immunity? Natural infection from back with the original virus? I've not seen any evidence and can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. I think the real problem is going to be people who were never exposed to the virus getting a variant that is transmitting effectively through people with immunity to the original virus from any source. A way for a variant to get to that is to reach levels that kill anyone not previously exposed. Fear for people who have an immunity I find misplaced, for those who are immunized or survive an ever more dangerous first infection this is going to be our new flu, and it will send people to hospital and very rarely kill.
- mikem170 5y ago
  > can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. Because the body's immune system can target the entire virus, and not just the spike protein.
  - tapoxi 5y ago
    But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case.
    - mikem170 5y ago
      > But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I came across this paper [0] that seemed to be saying their tests showed that the vaccine antibodies better handled the receptor mutations they created (how much better? 100%? or 1%?), but that antibodies from a natural infection target other parts of the virus besides just the receptor (possibly offering broader protection): > Therefore, antibody immunity acquired by natural infection or different modes of vaccination may have a differing susceptibility to erosion by SARS-CoV-2 evolution. > The neutralizing activity of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more targeted to the receptor-binding domain (RBD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein compared to antibodies elicited by natural infection. However, within the RBD, binding of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more broadly distributed across epitopes compared to infection-elicited antibodies. There's so much they don't know about the immune system. The above doesn't even get into T-cells. > I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case. I found the article on these Massachusetts cases interesting. They found a bunch of vaccine breakthrough cases, not cases amongst people who already had covid. On it's own that seems to imply natural immunity might be better, don't you think? Have you seen anything to the contrary? Maybe too close to call at this point. Could go either way. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Even with the vaccines there are many antibodies for other parts of the virus than have mutated , they're just not very effective. There are also inactivated whole virus vaccines, they're not very effective either.
InTheArena 5y ago
If you do receive a vaccine, the overwhelming evidence is that the case will be dramatically less dangerous. Let’s call herd immunity what it is - human sacrifice..
- babesh 5y ago
  There are other interpretations/courses of action: - people who are vulnerable should take the vaccine but those who are not shouldn’t; vulnerable need to take boosters every 6 months - masks forever - back to normal and live with it A question is how much protection getting COVID-19 confers vs the vaccines. The hilarious thing would be if getting COVID-19 confers more protection. - Then we should ban people who haven’t gotten COVID-19 from work, public spaces, etc… even if they have been vaccinated as certain people want to do to the unvaccinated.
hackflip 5y ago
Governments lie and lies (masks don't work, just two weeks, how dare you not wear a mask, social distancing is important unless you're a politician, you'll get your freedom back once your vaccinated, etc), but then anyone who questions them is "anti-science".

somewhereoutth 5y ago

With this comment we realize that the American experiment has essentially failed - and that in fact, left to their own devices, with only 'freedom' to guide them, people will inevitably devolve into mindless cretins.

InTheArena 5y ago
If you think that this is the failure of American experiment, you are deeply ignorant of the liberal human rights infested democracy in which you either live or do not live.
hattmall 5y ago
Natural immunity would seem superior as there are many more breakthrough cases in vaccinated vs reinfections.

smorgusofborg 5y ago

> what's the point, if natural infections are the only way to get protective immunity? Natural infection from back with the original virus? I've not seen any evidence and can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. I think the real problem is going to be people who were never exposed to the virus getting a variant that is transmitting effectively through people with immunity to the original virus from any source. A way for a variant to get to that is to reach levels that kill anyone not previously exposed. Fear for people who have an immunity I find misplaced, for those who are immunized or survive an ever more dangerous first infection this is going to be our new flu, and it will send people to hospital and very rarely kill.

mikem170 5y ago
> can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. Because the body's immune system can target the entire virus, and not just the spike protein.
- tapoxi 5y ago
  But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    > But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I came across this paper [0] that seemed to be saying their tests showed that the vaccine antibodies better handled the receptor mutations they created (how much better? 100%? or 1%?), but that antibodies from a natural infection target other parts of the virus besides just the receptor (possibly offering broader protection): > Therefore, antibody immunity acquired by natural infection or different modes of vaccination may have a differing susceptibility to erosion by SARS-CoV-2 evolution. > The neutralizing activity of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more targeted to the receptor-binding domain (RBD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein compared to antibodies elicited by natural infection. However, within the RBD, binding of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more broadly distributed across epitopes compared to infection-elicited antibodies. There's so much they don't know about the immune system. The above doesn't even get into T-cells. > I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case. I found the article on these Massachusetts cases interesting. They found a bunch of vaccine breakthrough cases, not cases amongst people who already had covid. On it's own that seems to imply natural immunity might be better, don't you think? Have you seen anything to the contrary? Maybe too close to call at this point. Could go either way. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Even with the vaccines there are many antibodies for other parts of the virus than have mutated , they're just not very effective. There are also inactivated whole virus vaccines, they're not very effective either.

InTheArena 5y ago

If you do receive a vaccine, the overwhelming evidence is that the case will be dramatically less dangerous. Let’s call herd immunity what it is - human sacrifice..

babesh 5y ago
There are other interpretations/courses of action: - people who are vulnerable should take the vaccine but those who are not shouldn’t; vulnerable need to take boosters every 6 months - masks forever - back to normal and live with it A question is how much protection getting COVID-19 confers vs the vaccines. The hilarious thing would be if getting COVID-19 confers more protection. - Then we should ban people who haven’t gotten COVID-19 from work, public spaces, etc… even if they have been vaccinated as certain people want to do to the unvaccinated.

hackflip 5y ago

Governments lie and lies (masks don't work, just two weeks, how dare you not wear a mask, social distancing is important unless you're a politician, you'll get your freedom back once your vaccinated, etc), but then anyone who questions them is "anti-science".