10 ms·

I noticed Avi didn't mention how much "pay and benefits" he's receiving. It's not often one gets to observe outstandingly tone-deaf execs prattle on, so read it

I noticed Avi didn't mention how much "pay and benefits" he's receiving. It's not often one gets to observe outstandingly tone-deaf execs prattle on, so read it as the gem it is. "We just received $230MM in funding, which I'm going to shovel as much as I can into my personal accounts, but the rest of y'all need to take a pay cut. BTW, we're hiring!"

Finnucane 5y ago
Really? It seems like tone-deaf executives are a pretty routine occurrence.
- mikestew 5y ago
  This one stands out among the rest in my mind, hence the modifier.
- wallacoloo 5y ago
  At a recent all-hands about hiring, and wages for existing/future employees, my CEO blatantly said “we look around at the market and set wages based on the going rate”. Something totally innocuous to someone with his background. Weirdly revealing to many employees at a rapidly advancing startup without much background in finance: the company as a whole doesn’t even consider output when setting wages.
  - polskibus 5y ago
    Everyone does it to a degree when they're buying a service or a product. It's the market that dictates the price, unless the company's lifeline depends to a high degree on a particular employee and his non transferrable knowledge and skills that are specific to the company.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - malandrew 5y ago
      child comment I was replying to was deleted so adding this to this parent comment: Likewise I've met plenty of engineers that are not profitably replaceable. Almost every SWE is replaceable, but many it makes no sense to replace and that usually correlates with their tenure working on a particular system. I myself have several years of knowledge I've accumulated working in a specific problem space at the company. It would take a new hire minimum 2-3 years if not more to accumulate the specialized knowledge I have. So if I were to leave tomorrow over pay, they would have to hire a replacement at the market rate (salary and a 4 year equity grant). That replacement would be far less productive than me for minimum 2 years, so they pay out 4 years of equity now to see equal productivity 2 years from now and if they continue the same pay strategy, that new hire will leave after 4 years of equity has vested. They basically get 2 years of productivity 2 years from now for the price of 4 years of equity today. It's just stupid to play chicken with salary when there are considerable opportunities costs for doing so and you're essentially paying double for half. It's not just me either. I see it with folks across the board at the company. The only ones I consider relatively fungible are those that team hop every 1 to 1.5 years.
  - closeparen 5y ago
    There seems to be a contingent of people floating around the internet with the idea that wages are "output minus," or more commonly that prices are "cost plus," and then getting all righteously indignant when they aren't. That is now how a market economy works! I mean, you can't usually sell for less than cost or pay more than productivity over the long term, but sometimes you do (loss leaders, R&D investments), and you can definitely do the reverse.
    - wallacoloo 5y ago
      > That is not how a market economy works! Well, you're right. I'm not in disagreement with the way in which dispassionate markets are understood to behave. I'm in disagreement that such a dispassionate job market is any sort of ideal that ought to be embraced by the average joe -- and that we've largely accepted it as if it were (or at least as if it were "good enough"). Let's say I go to a potluck and bring store-bought cookies as my contribution. My friends say "come on, wallacoloo, we all worked our butts off preparing good food for you: we deserve better from you." I reply, "well then, find a new friend who's willing to make better food for you and show them to me. Once you show me that such a man exists, I'll contribute to you as much as he would." It's an absurd scenario. It's insulting. That's not any type of relationship we should aim for. But suddenly, once you introduce enough indirection (money, specialization, larger-sized groups), I'm supposed to think that making every such interaction into an adversarial one is somehow proper.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
        I disagree. The difference is friendship vs commerce. Your employer-employee relationship is commercial, so it's reasonable of the CEO to think of your salary as market-driven, just as it is reasonable of you to leave when the market rate rises above what you're paid. It's business, you shouldn't take it personally. OTOH, the potluck is among friends. You're expected to have your friends' best interests in mind and to enjoy being around them, so it's not surprising that they'd be offended if they spent hours cooking and you just ran to the store and bought a cheap salad or some cookies.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
staticassertion 5y ago
Yeah, as a CEO I find it gross. I don't make the most at my company by a long shot - I own stock, which carries more risk, but I chose to take this path. If the company is over budget I'm the first to take a pay cut, I would never try to extract that from my employees before I did so with my own funds. The reason developers are paid a lot is because they're worth a lot. That's it. IMO If you're a CEO that's what you sign up for. If you can't handle that, find another job.
- bb88 5y ago
  I suspect that the market is finally catching up. A good dev might might generate $4M of revenue (or savings) over the course of his tenure. I know I saved companies millions of dollars but only got $100k/yr doing it.
  - walshemj 5y ago
    I fixed a single bug that recovered amount (in todays terms ) in my mid 20's. Neither I or the company secretary I worked with to ever got a word of thanks.
    - ASalazarMX 5y ago
      At least you can be sure that the deed was not forgotten, someone higher likely took credit for it.
    - brianwawok 5y ago
      To be fair, someone else made a bug that cost that much. I don't think you want to be in the business of getting a say 20% of revenue from big fixes, but also get 20% of revenue from bug creation? Or hey maybe you do, you could try to get that in your next contract.
      - walshemj 5y ago
        Yeh a previous FD who brought that POS accounts receivable.
walshemj 5y ago
That's some grade A "Gerald Ratner" career/ company sabotage right there.
- mzs 5y ago
  What's the back story on this? I only recognize the name as UofC donor and google failed me.
  - walshemj 5y ago
    He was at the time the CEO of a very big UK Jewelry group made a speech where he said. "We also do cut-glass sherry decanters complete with six glasses on a silver-plated tray that your butler can serve you drinks on, all for £4.95. People say, "How can you sell this for such a low price?", I say, "because it's total crap." Basically destroyed the company.
    - mzs 5y ago
      oh a different Gerald Ratner, thanks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner_(lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner_(lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner
  - nereye 5y ago
    see, e.g.: https://thehustle.co/gerald-ratners-billion-dollar-speech https://thehustle.co/gerald-ratners-billion-dollar-speech
LeifCarrotson 5y ago
For another example, here's the president of the Seattle Mariners bragging to a rotary club meeting about how their team's payroll was as low as it gets, how they get more than they deserve out of their TV deal, how they brazenly manipulate young players' in their minor-league teams to avoid starting the clock on their service contracts (basically the baseball equivalent of "my startup is offering stock options to justify low salaries, but we're going to dilute/fundraise at higher liquidation preference/prevent them from reaching the exercise price/terminate the employees before they vest so they don't cost us anything!"). He says that a particular veteran player and team leader is expensive, so they're going to fire him at the end of the season, another player from Japan doesn't speak English well and he wants to get rid of his interpreter. He brags that there's not enough parking, so he can get away with charging $30, $40, $50 to park in his tiny little parking garage, and he makes his employees park on the other side of town in a bad neighborhood. https://youtu.be/zBg8_44uDZ0 https://youtu.be/zBg8_44uDZ0 It's one thing to observe that people may rationalize the decisions that benefit themselves personally. Sure, it would be unexpected for the CEO to decide "We don't pay our employees enough", but you'd like to have a veneer of justification for the cut. You can imagine their subconscious pushing them towards the conclusion that they're incentivized to reach. It's another to hear them literally say the quiet part out loud.
- bookofsand 5y ago
  Interesting. Just saw this headline in the local newspaper the other day: "New president of business operations Catie Griggs wants Mariners to be ‘most progressive team’ in MLB". https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/mariners/new-president-of-baseball-operations-catie-griggs-wants-mariners-to-be-most-progressive-team-in-mlb https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/mariners/new-president-o...
- jbluepolarbear 5y ago
  Nintendo ruined the Mariners. They took over a decent team and drove it into the ground. By the time they sold the team in 2016 the team was one of the worst. But hey, they sell a lot of those virtual ads!
- selimthegrim 5y ago

Finnucane 5y ago

Really? It seems like tone-deaf executives are a pretty routine occurrence.

mikestew 5y ago
This one stands out among the rest in my mind, hence the modifier.
wallacoloo 5y ago
At a recent all-hands about hiring, and wages for existing/future employees, my CEO blatantly said “we look around at the market and set wages based on the going rate”. Something totally innocuous to someone with his background. Weirdly revealing to many employees at a rapidly advancing startup without much background in finance: the company as a whole doesn’t even consider output when setting wages.
- polskibus 5y ago
  Everyone does it to a degree when they're buying a service or a product. It's the market that dictates the price, unless the company's lifeline depends to a high degree on a particular employee and his non transferrable knowledge and skills that are specific to the company.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - malandrew 5y ago
    child comment I was replying to was deleted so adding this to this parent comment: Likewise I've met plenty of engineers that are not profitably replaceable. Almost every SWE is replaceable, but many it makes no sense to replace and that usually correlates with their tenure working on a particular system. I myself have several years of knowledge I've accumulated working in a specific problem space at the company. It would take a new hire minimum 2-3 years if not more to accumulate the specialized knowledge I have. So if I were to leave tomorrow over pay, they would have to hire a replacement at the market rate (salary and a 4 year equity grant). That replacement would be far less productive than me for minimum 2 years, so they pay out 4 years of equity now to see equal productivity 2 years from now and if they continue the same pay strategy, that new hire will leave after 4 years of equity has vested. They basically get 2 years of productivity 2 years from now for the price of 4 years of equity today. It's just stupid to play chicken with salary when there are considerable opportunities costs for doing so and you're essentially paying double for half. It's not just me either. I see it with folks across the board at the company. The only ones I consider relatively fungible are those that team hop every 1 to 1.5 years.
- closeparen 5y ago
  There seems to be a contingent of people floating around the internet with the idea that wages are "output minus," or more commonly that prices are "cost plus," and then getting all righteously indignant when they aren't. That is now how a market economy works! I mean, you can't usually sell for less than cost or pay more than productivity over the long term, but sometimes you do (loss leaders, R&D investments), and you can definitely do the reverse.
  - wallacoloo 5y ago
    > That is not how a market economy works! Well, you're right. I'm not in disagreement with the way in which dispassionate markets are understood to behave. I'm in disagreement that such a dispassionate job market is any sort of ideal that ought to be embraced by the average joe -- and that we've largely accepted it as if it were (or at least as if it were "good enough"). Let's say I go to a potluck and bring store-bought cookies as my contribution. My friends say "come on, wallacoloo, we all worked our butts off preparing good food for you: we deserve better from you." I reply, "well then, find a new friend who's willing to make better food for you and show them to me. Once you show me that such a man exists, I'll contribute to you as much as he would." It's an absurd scenario. It's insulting. That's not any type of relationship we should aim for. But suddenly, once you introduce enough indirection (money, specialization, larger-sized groups), I'm supposed to think that making every such interaction into an adversarial one is somehow proper.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
      I disagree. The difference is friendship vs commerce. Your employer-employee relationship is commercial, so it's reasonable of the CEO to think of your salary as market-driven, just as it is reasonable of you to leave when the market rate rises above what you're paid. It's business, you shouldn't take it personally. OTOH, the potluck is among friends. You're expected to have your friends' best interests in mind and to enjoy being around them, so it's not surprising that they'd be offended if they spent hours cooking and you just ran to the store and bought a cheap salad or some cookies.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

staticassertion 5y ago

Yeah, as a CEO I find it gross. I don't make the most at my company by a long shot - I own stock, which carries more risk, but I chose to take this path. If the company is over budget I'm the first to take a pay cut, I would never try to extract that from my employees before I did so with my own funds. The reason developers are paid a lot is because they're worth a lot. That's it. IMO If you're a CEO that's what you sign up for. If you can't handle that, find another job.

bb88 5y ago
I suspect that the market is finally catching up. A good dev might might generate $4M of revenue (or savings) over the course of his tenure. I know I saved companies millions of dollars but only got $100k/yr doing it.
- walshemj 5y ago
  I fixed a single bug that recovered amount (in todays terms ) in my mid 20's. Neither I or the company secretary I worked with to ever got a word of thanks.
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    At least you can be sure that the deed was not forgotten, someone higher likely took credit for it.
  - brianwawok 5y ago
    To be fair, someone else made a bug that cost that much. I don't think you want to be in the business of getting a say 20% of revenue from big fixes, but also get 20% of revenue from bug creation? Or hey maybe you do, you could try to get that in your next contract.
    - walshemj 5y ago
      Yeh a previous FD who brought that POS accounts receivable.

walshemj 5y ago

That's some grade A "Gerald Ratner" career/ company sabotage right there.

mzs 5y ago
What's the back story on this? I only recognize the name as UofC donor and google failed me.
- walshemj 5y ago
  He was at the time the CEO of a very big UK Jewelry group made a speech where he said. "We also do cut-glass sherry decanters complete with six glasses on a silver-plated tray that your butler can serve you drinks on, all for £4.95. People say, "How can you sell this for such a low price?", I say, "because it's total crap." Basically destroyed the company.
  - mzs 5y ago
    oh a different Gerald Ratner, thanks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner_(lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner_(lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner
- nereye 5y ago
  see, e.g.: https://thehustle.co/gerald-ratners-billion-dollar-speech https://thehustle.co/gerald-ratners-billion-dollar-speech

LeifCarrotson 5y ago

For another example, here's the president of the Seattle Mariners bragging to a rotary club meeting about how their team's payroll was as low as it gets, how they get more than they deserve out of their TV deal, how they brazenly manipulate young players' in their minor-league teams to avoid starting the clock on their service contracts (basically the baseball equivalent of "my startup is offering stock options to justify low salaries, but we're going to dilute/fundraise at higher liquidation preference/prevent them from reaching the exercise price/terminate the employees before they vest so they don't cost us anything!"). He says that a particular veteran player and team leader is expensive, so they're going to fire him at the end of the season, another player from Japan doesn't speak English well and he wants to get rid of his interpreter. He brags that there's not enough parking, so he can get away with charging $30, $40, $50 to park in his tiny little parking garage, and he makes his employees park on the other side of town in a bad neighborhood. https://youtu.be/zBg8_44uDZ0 https://youtu.be/zBg8_44uDZ0 It's one thing to observe that people may rationalize the decisions that benefit themselves personally. Sure, it would be unexpected for the CEO to decide "We don't pay our employees enough", but you'd like to have a veneer of justification for the cut. You can imagine their subconscious pushing them towards the conclusion that they're incentivized to reach. It's another to hear them literally say the quiet part out loud.

bookofsand 5y ago
Interesting. Just saw this headline in the local newspaper the other day: "New president of business operations Catie Griggs wants Mariners to be ‘most progressive team’ in MLB". https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/mariners/new-president-of-baseball-operations-catie-griggs-wants-mariners-to-be-most-progressive-team-in-mlb https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/mariners/new-president-o...
jbluepolarbear 5y ago
Nintendo ruined the Mariners. They took over a decent team and drove it into the ground. By the time they sold the team in 2016 the team was one of the worst. But hey, they sell a lot of those virtual ads!
selimthegrim 5y ago