13 ms·

Are Covid Restrictions the New TSA?

32 points by srl 5y ago

roenxi 5y ago
Once there is enough of a buffer in vaccination doses to suggest that everyone who wants one has got one, there isn't a lot of justification for serious COVID countermeasures. Otherwise what is the endgame? Hermetically sealing every man, woman, child and dog? Life is risky and we all have a lot more medical problems than is commonly acknowledged. EDIT And until airline travel is basically banned, it isn't like the powers-that-be are truly serious about stopping the spread. The delta variant wasn't unexpected and can't teleport, it crossed borders in a travelling host.
- gilbetron 5y ago
  I agree. I had thought the plan was, "have heavy countermeasures in place until we get a vaccine or a cure, to minimize the amount of deaths and burden on our hospitals". We did that. One "bonus objective" was getting enough people vaccinated to make Covid extinct, but that was a longshot. And we failed, miserably, at the attempt. So Covid is here, we will all get it at some point, there's nothing we can do about that anymore. Countermeasures will not stop that. The only point to some countermeasures is in specific locations where the unvaccinated are getting hit hard an putting a burden on healthcare systems. But that should be targeted and brief, and only to protect other people that need healthcare services. The unvaccinated that have the option to be vaccinated have made their choice. I'd much rather be in the "herd immunity" timeline, but here we are.
  - ceilingcorner 5y ago
    It is no different than the "temporary measures" of the Patriot Act. It boggles my mind how people think governments will ever give back power, once acquired. It doesn't work that way.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      It boggles my mind how people think governments get anything out of covid restrictions.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- johannes1234321 5y ago
  > everyone who wants one has got one If too many don't want to, this unfortunately isn't enough. Unvaccinated are a danger to others who can't be vaccinated (children under current rules, people with weak immune system) and where it for whatever reason failed (happend with other vaccines, not sure how likely with mRNA) Thus "vaccine sceptics" don't impact only themselves but can cause effects on others (and yeah, "children aren't hospitLized" but suffer from LongCovid ...)
  - shiftpgdn 5y ago
    As far as I know there isn’t any serious scientific evidence for long covid, especially in previously healthy persons.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    I dunno, what's new? There are people out there who advocate war. That is even worse than being unvaccinated, and yet such people often end up in positions of power. And people with weak immune systems are living in constant danger anyway. They have weak immune systems.
  - ceilingcorner 5y ago
    How is this different from any other behavior? Being obese makes you more susceptible to most communicable diseases, colds, and flus, yet I don't see anyone calling for Doritos to be banned and those with a BMI over 30 to be restricted from participating in society. At some point, you have to take personal responsibility. You cannot offload every single one of your personal health concerns on to the rest of the population.
    - saalweachter 5y ago
      Haven't there been campaigns to ban sugary drinks?
      - ceilingcorner 5y ago
        By certain over-zealous governments, yes. Michael Bloomberg, I'm looking at you. There is also a big difference between making sugary drinks expensive/banned and locking people that consume sugary drinks into their houses.
h2odragon 5y ago
Good analogy; even today it's hard to have a "cost vs benefits" discussion on the "War On [Terror,Drugs,Poverty]" or whatever you care to name, really. "Covid theater" is as apt a description of so much of public policy this last year as "security theater" was of so much post 9-11 horseshit. It's all kabuki meant to show how well you dance with your tribe.
shrimp_emoji 5y ago
We cared enough about 3,000 dying in NY that we slashed and burned our civil liberties. We kinda-sorta care about 600,000 deaths and counting around the country... enough to ruin small businesses, but little enough to eventually relent and spread COVID more... and I guess see-saw periodically while people bitch and moan about wearing a mask. :D
johnklos 5y ago
This is drivel. The idea that we'll eventually worry too much about Covid and other similar viruses that we'll have a new infrastructure which'll be as useless and ineffective as the TSA is just plainly disingenuous. Anyhow, anyone who advocates for defunding schools instead of advocating for fixing them thinks that capitalism works, so it shouldn't surprise us that the author would suggest that the logical consequence of A is Q.
helge9210 5y ago
Somehow I missed the point in time when it became mandatory for employees to share their health conditions with employer. Do HIV (virus no less deadly for immunocompromised) positive person also has to report their status and current medication plan?
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  I assume transmissibility in the workplace affects decisions.
- acdha 5y ago
  Not unless their job involves activities which could spread HIV. This is true for jobs where there’s a meaningful risk: when I worked a research institute, I had mandatory vaccines which they provided for anyone with access to the labs, even the IT people. They aren’t allowed to ask for your medical history in most cases (military pilots, etc. have exemptions where it’s a job requirement) but they can require proof of vaccination as long as it doesn’t include medical details.
happytoexplain 5y ago
>Children at band practice ... long after it was known COVID-19 poses almost no risk to children I wish articles wouldn't start out right away by broadcasting their black-and-white side-taking (the evidence here being the implication that there is no reason to control the spread of COVID among children if they have less severe symptoms on average).
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  To me the implication was "look how dystopian these kids look wearing COVID body suits" and not that there no reason to control COVID among children.
acdha 5y ago
This silly: the post-9/11 overreaction was condemned because it was based on implausible threats, ineffective (remember how routinely auditors got weapons through?), and extremely expensive both in time and procurement. Terrorism vaguely defined also has no endpoint or exit conditions. In contrast, we’re in the middle of a pandemic which has claimed millions of lives, and measures like masks and vaccination are cheap and have minimal downsides. There is no credible reason to believe anyone will continue restrictions when the pandemic is finally over. Vaccination gives us a clear exit path and a robust treatment will only accelerate that. The author’s argument for children is a similar bit of emotion pretending to be reason. Children die less frequently, although Delta is hitting harder, but long-term complications are nothing to be cavalier about simply because the scientific evidence doesn’t support your lifestyle preferences. Going by the published stats and 50M under 12, letting COVID run rampant still means thousands of dead children (just in the United States), hundreds of thousands of kids with cases severe enough to require hospitalization, and at least an equal number with long-term effects we’re just starting to study. Wearing a mask and only dining outdoors for a few months longer seems like a much better option.
Lendal 5y ago
He keeps talking about cost-benefit analysis. He never explores the fact you can't have a cost-benefit analysis when you have information that is A) untrustworthy, B) constantly changing, or C) conflicting. In that situation, people are going to be either too safe or not safe enough, depending on what "team" you're on relative to them. Nobody can be right. We can spend all our time reading criticisms such as this one all day long and never get anywhere.
sys_64738 5y ago
Unvaccinated are the troublemakers here. They enable mutations to occur and spread. If everyone is vaccinated then this can't happen.

32 points by srl 5y ago

Once there is enough of a buffer in vaccination doses to suggest that everyone who wants one has got one, there isn't a lot of justification for serious COVID countermeasures. Otherwise what is the endgame? Hermetically sealing every man, woman, child and dog? Life is risky and we all have a lot more medical problems than is commonly acknowledged. EDIT And until airline travel is basically banned, it isn't like the powers-that-be are truly serious about stopping the spread. The delta variant wasn't unexpected and can't teleport, it crossed borders in a travelling host.

gilbetron 5y ago
I agree. I had thought the plan was, "have heavy countermeasures in place until we get a vaccine or a cure, to minimize the amount of deaths and burden on our hospitals". We did that. One "bonus objective" was getting enough people vaccinated to make Covid extinct, but that was a longshot. And we failed, miserably, at the attempt. So Covid is here, we will all get it at some point, there's nothing we can do about that anymore. Countermeasures will not stop that. The only point to some countermeasures is in specific locations where the unvaccinated are getting hit hard an putting a burden on healthcare systems. But that should be targeted and brief, and only to protect other people that need healthcare services. The unvaccinated that have the option to be vaccinated have made their choice. I'd much rather be in the "herd immunity" timeline, but here we are.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  It is no different than the "temporary measures" of the Patriot Act. It boggles my mind how people think governments will ever give back power, once acquired. It doesn't work that way.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    It boggles my mind how people think governments get anything out of covid restrictions.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
johannes1234321 5y ago
> everyone who wants one has got one If too many don't want to, this unfortunately isn't enough. Unvaccinated are a danger to others who can't be vaccinated (children under current rules, people with weak immune system) and where it for whatever reason failed (happend with other vaccines, not sure how likely with mRNA) Thus "vaccine sceptics" don't impact only themselves but can cause effects on others (and yeah, "children aren't hospitLized" but suffer from LongCovid ...)
- shiftpgdn 5y ago
  As far as I know there isn’t any serious scientific evidence for long covid, especially in previously healthy persons.
- roenxi 5y ago
  I dunno, what's new? There are people out there who advocate war. That is even worse than being unvaccinated, and yet such people often end up in positions of power. And people with weak immune systems are living in constant danger anyway. They have weak immune systems.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  How is this different from any other behavior? Being obese makes you more susceptible to most communicable diseases, colds, and flus, yet I don't see anyone calling for Doritos to be banned and those with a BMI over 30 to be restricted from participating in society. At some point, you have to take personal responsibility. You cannot offload every single one of your personal health concerns on to the rest of the population.
  - saalweachter 5y ago
    Haven't there been campaigns to ban sugary drinks?
    - ceilingcorner 5y ago
      By certain over-zealous governments, yes. Michael Bloomberg, I'm looking at you. There is also a big difference between making sugary drinks expensive/banned and locking people that consume sugary drinks into their houses.

h2odragon 5y ago

Good analogy; even today it's hard to have a "cost vs benefits" discussion on the "War On [Terror,Drugs,Poverty]" or whatever you care to name, really. "Covid theater" is as apt a description of so much of public policy this last year as "security theater" was of so much post 9-11 horseshit. It's all kabuki meant to show how well you dance with your tribe.

shrimp_emoji 5y ago

We cared enough about 3,000 dying in NY that we slashed and burned our civil liberties. We kinda-sorta care about 600,000 deaths and counting around the country... enough to ruin small businesses, but little enough to eventually relent and spread COVID more... and I guess see-saw periodically while people bitch and moan about wearing a mask. :D

johnklos 5y ago

This is drivel. The idea that we'll eventually worry too much about Covid and other similar viruses that we'll have a new infrastructure which'll be as useless and ineffective as the TSA is just plainly disingenuous. Anyhow, anyone who advocates for defunding schools instead of advocating for fixing them thinks that capitalism works, so it shouldn't surprise us that the author would suggest that the logical consequence of A is Q.

helge9210 5y ago

Somehow I missed the point in time when it became mandatory for employees to share their health conditions with employer. Do HIV (virus no less deadly for immunocompromised) positive person also has to report their status and current medication plan?

happytoexplain 5y ago
I assume transmissibility in the workplace affects decisions.
acdha 5y ago
Not unless their job involves activities which could spread HIV. This is true for jobs where there’s a meaningful risk: when I worked a research institute, I had mandatory vaccines which they provided for anyone with access to the labs, even the IT people. They aren’t allowed to ask for your medical history in most cases (military pilots, etc. have exemptions where it’s a job requirement) but they can require proof of vaccination as long as it doesn’t include medical details.

happytoexplain 5y ago

>Children at band practice ... long after it was known COVID-19 poses almost no risk to children I wish articles wouldn't start out right away by broadcasting their black-and-white side-taking (the evidence here being the implication that there is no reason to control the spread of COVID among children if they have less severe symptoms on average).

ceilingcorner 5y ago
To me the implication was "look how dystopian these kids look wearing COVID body suits" and not that there no reason to control COVID among children.

acdha 5y ago

This silly: the post-9/11 overreaction was condemned because it was based on implausible threats, ineffective (remember how routinely auditors got weapons through?), and extremely expensive both in time and procurement. Terrorism vaguely defined also has no endpoint or exit conditions. In contrast, we’re in the middle of a pandemic which has claimed millions of lives, and measures like masks and vaccination are cheap and have minimal downsides. There is no credible reason to believe anyone will continue restrictions when the pandemic is finally over. Vaccination gives us a clear exit path and a robust treatment will only accelerate that. The author’s argument for children is a similar bit of emotion pretending to be reason. Children die less frequently, although Delta is hitting harder, but long-term complications are nothing to be cavalier about simply because the scientific evidence doesn’t support your lifestyle preferences. Going by the published stats and 50M under 12, letting COVID run rampant still means thousands of dead children (just in the United States), hundreds of thousands of kids with cases severe enough to require hospitalization, and at least an equal number with long-term effects we’re just starting to study. Wearing a mask and only dining outdoors for a few months longer seems like a much better option.

Lendal 5y ago

He keeps talking about cost-benefit analysis. He never explores the fact you can't have a cost-benefit analysis when you have information that is A) untrustworthy, B) constantly changing, or C) conflicting. In that situation, people are going to be either too safe or not safe enough, depending on what "team" you're on relative to them. Nobody can be right. We can spend all our time reading criticisms such as this one all day long and never get anywhere.

sys_64738 5y ago

Unvaccinated are the troublemakers here. They enable mutations to occur and spread. If everyone is vaccinated then this can't happen.