4 ms·

I think it is to fall into a trap to argue whether figs are "100% vegan" or not. The real problem is the quasi-religious approach that some unfortunately vocife

I think it is to fall into a trap to argue whether figs are "100% vegan" or not. The real problem is the quasi-religious approach that some unfortunately vociferous people follow with regards to many personal decisions, in such a way that the end goal of pursuing a moral principle is co-opted by a simplistic totalitarian interpretation of the rules, with the need to follow them perfectly as a sign of purity. There is no such thing as a "vegan food", be it figs, honey, or lettuce. What does exist are vegan values, and their end goal is to reduce suffering of sentient beings and to have no part in promoting it by exploiting them or consuming products which do. Arguing whether there is any wasp biomass in figs should be irrelevant to veganism. What should matter is whether wasps are suffering and being exploited because we eat figs. I believe not, but what do I know, I am not a vegan.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
imtringued 5y ago
This isn't a vegan thing, it's just the nirvana fallacy and it is everywhere.
- Mordisquitos 5y ago
  Yes, I agree. That's why I described it in broad terms in my first paragraph, because it happens across all sorts of personal beliefs and identities.
simondotau 5y ago
As someone who is not a vegan I think this is a very well written, concise summary of the distinction. I appreciated the clarity. Personally I am not swayed by veganism because I think the concept of suffering is oversimplified. In my view, suffering is better described as cognitive awareness of the situation causing pain or distress. Being mauled to death by a leopard is far more likely to cause suffering than a cow being walked into an abattoir—because the cow has no concept of an abattoir. A cow spends 18 months in a field living a generally quite nice life. In its last moments there is momentary discomfort as it is knocked unconscious by an explosive bolt to the head. Is this moment of discomfort so intolerable, so ruinous of the animal's prior worth, that it's better if it never existed in the first place? In my opinion, this conclusion is absurd to the point of being weird. I say this as someone who has personally experienced the sensation of been knocked unconscious by a severe blow to the head; in my case caused by an involuntary backwards fall towards the ground. I did not "suffer" at all until after I woke up with a headache. Had this strike to the head proved fatal, I can't imagine how I could have suffered at all. There are many aspects of the animal food industry which are cruel and should be made illegal. There are many aspects of the animal food industry which have serious externalities that are bad for human civilisation. But this doesn't make absolutism the moral high ground.
- checkyoursudo 5y ago
  I have thought there was a short story to be written (or maybe it already has been!) about aliens who come to earth and start eating humans. When the humans complain, the aliens say, "why do you complain? you eat other animals, we eat you -- no big deal!"
  - TheFreim 5y ago
    I'd say the fact that humans can complain gives a hint that they, and the hypothetical aliens, are in a desperate category than cows.
  - TacticalCoder 5y ago
    I remember a very old comics (in french?) where this happen: aliens arrive on earth, chase a human, start eating him alive (an ear, a part of his arm) but then they find the taste just disgusting so they leave it there, bleeding but alive and suffering.
  - danielheath 5y ago
    Red Dwarf covered this as an (IMO very funny) side-plot (in the episode where they accidentally interfered with JFK's assassination).
    - simondotau 5y ago
      In terms of comedy derived from the eating of animals, I'm partial to the restaurant scene in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Is there any reason why I shouldn't have a green salad?" "I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point sir, which is why it was decided to cut through the whole tangled problem by breeding an animal that actually wanted to be eaten—and was capable of saying so, clearly and distinctly. And here I am." "Glass of water?" https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87 https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  I think far fewer people would be vegetarian if any aspect of modern farming looks even remotely the way you describe below. At most a tiny fraction of the cows in milk or meat production (and basically NONE of the pigs or chicken) ever see an open pasture in their lives. Cows are impregnated and kept in small fenced areas,l all their lives. Their babies are removed most often right after birth, sometimes a few days later. The calves are separated and kept with other calves, fed a small share of the milk produced by their mothers (or even just from the tank containing all cows' milk. The males are butchered as babies and the females raised for milk production and share the fate of their mothers - dozens of babies, taken away each time right after birth. All of them are fed various kinds of medicine (steroids, antibiotics, etc) to make sure they grow fast and survive, irrespective of whether they suffer. For slaughter they are usually first stuffed in wagons or trucks and carted hours to whatever abattoir paid the best price. There they are in a long queue where they hear and smell and later see the animals in front of them being killed. The 'shock' is often hit or miss, meaning many are alive when they get the bolt into their skull, others even survive that for a bit. All that just so that you get a cheap burger. Dozens of the quality labels are just lies: e.g. Grass fed means they got grass, not that they were ever outside. Most animals never see the sky in their lives. I appreciate that it could be much more humane, but to ignore that the above is the reality today is just willful denial. Advertisements show you beautiful alps or Argentinian meadows, but these are not the reality in which your animal actually lived.
estaseuropano 5y ago
Vegetarian here and can only agree. I love the flavor of meat and would eat it but in my view the meat industry is a dystopian nightmare that I'm sure our decendents will look upon with the same horror as we have when we look at our ancestors' acceptance of slavery and serfdom. I believe anyone who eats meat chooses to close their eyes to this suffering for a minor gain in pleasure - I can't make this choice for myself but I have to accept that others do so. But to argue that fig wasps or bees are being exploited is free of reason. You can't till the fields without killing worms, you can't harvest grain without death of rabbits or mice living between the plants (but you CAN reduce pesticides and do less harm to insect life and the environment). You can't even make apple juice without an occasional worm in there. You also can't live in a modern city without exterminators killing mice, rats, pigeons, ducks, cockroaches, etc. You can't maintain a healthy forest without either wolf or man killing some of the deer. The radials that can't see nuance or reality are not helping anyone.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  > but in my view the meat industry is a dystopian nightmare 100% agreement there. I worked in an abbatoir (pigs) for 10 years. It's a horror show for the animals AND the workers. I am not vegetarian, but I only buy organic and/or free range meat now. I won't touch anything that goes through the industrial killing machine.
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    I predict that if/when lab grown meat becomes commercially viable and normalized, our descendants are going to look back at us as immoral savages for factory farming and turning a blind eye to animal suffering. I'm not even a vegetarian and I recognize the hypocrisy in "caring about animals" but still wanting to eat meat.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

imtringued 5y ago

This isn't a vegan thing, it's just the nirvana fallacy and it is everywhere.

Mordisquitos 5y ago
Yes, I agree. That's why I described it in broad terms in my first paragraph, because it happens across all sorts of personal beliefs and identities.

simondotau 5y ago

As someone who is not a vegan I think this is a very well written, concise summary of the distinction. I appreciated the clarity. Personally I am not swayed by veganism because I think the concept of suffering is oversimplified. In my view, suffering is better described as cognitive awareness of the situation causing pain or distress. Being mauled to death by a leopard is far more likely to cause suffering than a cow being walked into an abattoir—because the cow has no concept of an abattoir. A cow spends 18 months in a field living a generally quite nice life. In its last moments there is momentary discomfort as it is knocked unconscious by an explosive bolt to the head. Is this moment of discomfort so intolerable, so ruinous of the animal's prior worth, that it's better if it never existed in the first place? In my opinion, this conclusion is absurd to the point of being weird. I say this as someone who has personally experienced the sensation of been knocked unconscious by a severe blow to the head; in my case caused by an involuntary backwards fall towards the ground. I did not "suffer" at all until after I woke up with a headache. Had this strike to the head proved fatal, I can't imagine how I could have suffered at all. There are many aspects of the animal food industry which are cruel and should be made illegal. There are many aspects of the animal food industry which have serious externalities that are bad for human civilisation. But this doesn't make absolutism the moral high ground.

checkyoursudo 5y ago
I have thought there was a short story to be written (or maybe it already has been!) about aliens who come to earth and start eating humans. When the humans complain, the aliens say, "why do you complain? you eat other animals, we eat you -- no big deal!"
- TheFreim 5y ago
  I'd say the fact that humans can complain gives a hint that they, and the hypothetical aliens, are in a desperate category than cows.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  I remember a very old comics (in french?) where this happen: aliens arrive on earth, chase a human, start eating him alive (an ear, a part of his arm) but then they find the taste just disgusting so they leave it there, bleeding but alive and suffering.
- danielheath 5y ago
  Red Dwarf covered this as an (IMO very funny) side-plot (in the episode where they accidentally interfered with JFK's assassination).
  - simondotau 5y ago
    In terms of comedy derived from the eating of animals, I'm partial to the restaurant scene in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Is there any reason why I shouldn't have a green salad?" "I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point sir, which is why it was decided to cut through the whole tangled problem by breeding an animal that actually wanted to be eaten—and was capable of saying so, clearly and distinctly. And here I am." "Glass of water?" https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87 https://youtu.be/bAF35dekiAY?t=87
estaseuropano 5y ago
I think far fewer people would be vegetarian if any aspect of modern farming looks even remotely the way you describe below. At most a tiny fraction of the cows in milk or meat production (and basically NONE of the pigs or chicken) ever see an open pasture in their lives. Cows are impregnated and kept in small fenced areas,l all their lives. Their babies are removed most often right after birth, sometimes a few days later. The calves are separated and kept with other calves, fed a small share of the milk produced by their mothers (or even just from the tank containing all cows' milk. The males are butchered as babies and the females raised for milk production and share the fate of their mothers - dozens of babies, taken away each time right after birth. All of them are fed various kinds of medicine (steroids, antibiotics, etc) to make sure they grow fast and survive, irrespective of whether they suffer. For slaughter they are usually first stuffed in wagons or trucks and carted hours to whatever abattoir paid the best price. There they are in a long queue where they hear and smell and later see the animals in front of them being killed. The 'shock' is often hit or miss, meaning many are alive when they get the bolt into their skull, others even survive that for a bit. All that just so that you get a cheap burger. Dozens of the quality labels are just lies: e.g. Grass fed means they got grass, not that they were ever outside. Most animals never see the sky in their lives. I appreciate that it could be much more humane, but to ignore that the above is the reality today is just willful denial. Advertisements show you beautiful alps or Argentinian meadows, but these are not the reality in which your animal actually lived.

estaseuropano 5y ago

Vegetarian here and can only agree. I love the flavor of meat and would eat it but in my view the meat industry is a dystopian nightmare that I'm sure our decendents will look upon with the same horror as we have when we look at our ancestors' acceptance of slavery and serfdom. I believe anyone who eats meat chooses to close their eyes to this suffering for a minor gain in pleasure - I can't make this choice for myself but I have to accept that others do so. But to argue that fig wasps or bees are being exploited is free of reason. You can't till the fields without killing worms, you can't harvest grain without death of rabbits or mice living between the plants (but you CAN reduce pesticides and do less harm to insect life and the environment). You can't even make apple juice without an occasional worm in there. You also can't live in a modern city without exterminators killing mice, rats, pigeons, ducks, cockroaches, etc. You can't maintain a healthy forest without either wolf or man killing some of the deer. The radials that can't see nuance or reality are not helping anyone.

a0-prw 5y ago
> but in my view the meat industry is a dystopian nightmare 100% agreement there. I worked in an abbatoir (pigs) for 10 years. It's a horror show for the animals AND the workers. I am not vegetarian, but I only buy organic and/or free range meat now. I won't touch anything that goes through the industrial killing machine.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  I predict that if/when lab grown meat becomes commercially viable and normalized, our descendants are going to look back at us as immoral savages for factory farming and turning a blind eye to animal suffering. I'm not even a vegetarian and I recognize the hypocrisy in "caring about animals" but still wanting to eat meat.